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laureanna wrote:

LalaithUrwen wrote:

They say they're not supposed to teach it from any particular religious viewpoint. I don't see how to do that apart from studying it in a literature class or discussing how it impacted our nation (and the world). But I think it would be worthwhile to compare and contrast the Q'uran, too, and other sacred texts.

If a teacher takes the sacredness and authority out of the Bible and just teaches it as literature, the way he would teach the Bullfinch's Mythology or Navaho Indian Coyote stories, isn't that an atheistic approach? Would teachers be able to do that?

I doubt Texan parents will allow that.

Oddly enough, there is an atheist t.v. show, and podcast that are both based out of Austin.

Lidless wrote:

I'm in a London hotel right now and the fiirst thing I had to do, which Ive done for years now no matter which country I'm in, was to dump the fucking Gideon bible in the minibar. No minibar, I leave it outside the room.

What's the problem with it? No one is forcing you to read it or take it out of the nightstand.

I have always thought the Gideon's ministry was a perfect, low-key, non-offensive one. You go into a hotel, there's a Bible...not even in view, but in case you feel like reading it, there it is. Nobody comes knocking on your door, no one makes you open it, no one tells you how to interpret it.

I don't get your anger about it.

(Recently I was in a hotel which not only had the Gideon Bible, but also had the Koran and a book on Buddhism. I thought that was kind of cool.)

Someone needs to write the atheist bible... or just get a lot of copies of The Origin of Species. I can sympathize with Liddy's anger. Being an atheist, I'd rather not have to have anything religious in my vicinity, especially a room I pay for.

Well, Origin of Species is hardly an atheist manifesto.

You'd rather not have "anything religious" in your vicinity? That's...well...I don't know. It seems a bit precious to me. When you walk down the street of any major city, do you close your eyes so you don't see any churches or cathedrals? If you ride the public transport and there is a posted notice about a church service or a gospel concert, are you offended? If you hear a group singing hymns on a street corner, do you stop your ears? When you see the Salvation Army ringing for charity during the holidays, do you get all hot under the collar.

I mean...honestly.

jewelsong wrote:

Well, Origin of Species is hardly an atheist manifesto.

You'd rather not have "anything religious" in your vicinity? That's...well...I don't know. It seems a bit precious to me. When you walk down the street of any major city, do you close your eyes so you don't see any churches or cathedrals? If you ride the public transport and there is a posted notice about a church service or a gospel concert, are you offended? If you hear a group singing hymns on a street corner, do you stop your ears? When you see the Salvation Army ringing for charity during the holidays, do you get all hot under the collar.

I mean...honestly.

Since you asked so honestly, I will answer. If you noticed, I said "I'd rather..." Generally that phrase means "in my perfect world, things, or actions will be this way." Next time I will remember to add "but, I acknowledge that I am not the king of society, and that the world was not made in my image." Does that answer it for you, precious?

So, in your perfect world, you would destroy all the cathedrals and temples, all religious paintings and statues, all music pertaining to anything spiritual, all religious writings and poetry and so on?

I am dead serious here. You say you'd prefer not to have anything religious in your vicinity. Have you seriously thought about what would then be eliminated from your life's experience?

Answering for me; destroy? No; of course not. All that stuff already exists, a lot of it is beautiful, and more of it is history. But in this hypothetical ideal world, it wouldn't be there because it wouldn't have been made in the first place.

As for Bibles in hotel rooms; suppose you checked into one last fall and discovered that management had placed McCain/Palin leaflets in all the nightstands. Wouldn't that irk you a bit?

Dave_LF wrote:

As for Bibles in hotel rooms; suppose you checked into one last fall and discovered that management had placed McCain/Palin leaflets in all the nightstands. Wouldn't that irk you a bit?

First of all, the hotel management is not putting the Bibles into the hotel rooms. The Gideons are a private group who are dedicated to distributing free Bibles to people who might not otherwise encounter it. That is all they do.

They are not trying to get anyone elected, they are not asking for money, they are not a political or government group. I do not think distributing Bibles can be (or should be) compared with contributing campaign leaflets.

I am Christian, but I was not irked to find a copy of the Koran in the nightstand, nor would I be irked to find a copy of "Origin of Species." (Even though that really doesn't fit the model here.) In fact, any reading material I find for free in a hotel room would be rather a bonus. I hate watching TV and I don't always have a book with me.

As far as a perfect world having NO religious art, music. writings and so on...it's an interesting concept. The need for spirituality seems to be pretty much hard-wired into our brains. Some would argue that art and music themselves are spiritual...and without the sense of something beyond the here and now, there would be NO art or music.

And that would be far from a perfect world.

ETA: While looking up some info about the Gideons, I found this little gem. It might be apocryphal, but it makes a great story:

On Christmas Eve 1968, the astronauts of the Apollo 8 mission read from the first part of Genesis during a live television broadcast from lunar orbit. A Japanese correspondent staying at a Houston hotel while covering the mission called NASA Public Affairs to request a copy of the speech that the astronauts were reading. The Public Affairs official asked where he was staying and then told him that if he opened the desk drawer in his room he would find a book and that he should open it to page one. The reporter found the Gideon Bible and later reported that "NASA Public Affairs is very efficient - they had a mission transcript waiting in my hotel room."

Do buildings still practice that "no 13th floor" thing? I just figured putting bibles in drawers was one of those traditions kept up perhaps long after the original intent has any real meaning to the person doing it. I don't like mints, why the hell do I need one on my pillow every day, right?

Idk. Non-Christians celebrate Christmas, and wasn't Halloween a pagan holiday? Cuz I sure like both, regardless of my belief system. I find it more offensive that women have only been able to vote for less than a century, and still get shafted when it comes to equal pay. That is way more alarming than a stupid hotel room, which, as long as it has a tv and no evidence of dead hookers anywhere, there isn't much else I'm that worried about.

jewelsong wrote:

(Recently I was in a hotel which not only had the Gideon Bible, but also had the Koran and a book on Buddhism. I thought that was kind of cool.)

Oooo, agreed. I like that. Honestly, there are a lot of things I just think of as nice gestures basically. Not meant to mess with folks who don't feel it applies to them, but to "be there" for those it does. Tbh I can't think of another example right now, I just got up for a drink and it's way too early for this crap. But sorry to those who are bothered by things I like. For my part: not trying to ruin your day or anything.

EDIT: Dave, that wouldn't irk me - I'd be watching television anyway. And putting my angry face on at all the terrible commercials.




*E*

jewelsong wrote:

First of all, the hotel management is not putting the Bibles into the hotel rooms. The Gideons are a private group who are dedicated to distributing free Bibles to people who might not otherwise encounter it. That is all they do.

I know, but management is allowing them to do it. Amend my previous post to say that management had allowed McCain/Palin volunteers to come in and place literature in all the rooms.

Quote:

They are not trying to get anyone elected, they are not asking for money, they are not a political or government group. I do not think distributing Bibles can be (or should be) compared with contributing campaign leaflets.

That's right; they want your soul, which is more than any politician can say.

Quote:

I am Christian, but I was not irked to find a copy of the Koran in the nightstand, nor would I be irked to find a copy of "Origin of Species." (Even though that really doesn't fit the model here.) In fact, any reading material I find for free in a hotel room would be rather a bonus. I hate watching TV and I don't always have a book with me.

But what if the Koran was the only book, and it was in nearly every hotel room in many parts of the world?

Quote:

Some would argue that art and music themselves are spiritual...and without the sense of something beyond the here and now, there would be NO art or music.

And that would be far from a perfect world.

Some would argue that; others would point out that the world is full of non-religious people who can create and appreciate beauty just as well as anyone else. And in any case, "the sense of something beyond the here and now" is something one can have without turning it into a religion.

Edit for E: You're right that this issue isn't really worth making a big deal out of. I am officially against the practice and will argue against it when it comes up, but one does have to pick one's battles. The yahoos on the Texas schoolboard are much more worthy of opposition.

Dave_LF wrote:

But what if the Koran was the only book, and it was in nearly every hotel room in many parts of the world?.

Well, then I'd read it if that was the only book there. And if I thought another book should also be there and I felt strongly enough about it, I would try to muster a group to distribute them. Again, the Gideons are a private group and they did this on their own, as their mission. To my mind, it is a rather benign ministry especially compared with many other evangelical programs. The Bibles they distribute have no other commentary or texts...it's just there for the reading (or not reading) with no instructions or warnings or whatever. It doesn't say "Read this or lose your soul" or anything. It's just...there.

And while I don't think it's a practice that has "lost it's original meaning" as *E* said, it has become ubiquitous enough so that it can be seen as a comforting thing...no matter how seedy the hotel is, at least if there's a Bible in the drawer, you know the Gideons were there. (I remember once checking into a hotel with a friend and it was in a really dodgy area and kind of run down - and when we checked the night table drawer and there wasn't even a Bible in there, we thought we were really in trouble! We found another hotel the next day!)

One of the last hotels I was in had the Book of Mormon in it.

It didn't bother me. No book is going to cause me to burst into flames or have a crappy night. The noisy A/C or neighbors down the hall and the hard mattress usually do that.

(In fact, I started reading it, as I've always wanted to take a look at it.)

The point is that when you check into a hotel, you're a paying customer, and it's bad business to proselytize your customers with either politics or religion. I would be equally annoyed if the grocery store clerk slipped political fliers into my shopping bags, or if my ISP's homepage was filled with quotes from the Koran. I have no idea why the practice is so ubiquitous; what do the hotels have to gain?

Dave_LF wrote:

The point is that when you check into a hotel, you're a paying customer, and it's bad business to proselytize your customers with either politics or religion.

Oh, come on. A Bible hidden in a nightstand is hardly "proselytizing." If the hotel had big signs about going to hell all over the place and your room had a big picture of Jesus on the wall and there were tracts displayed on the desk about salvation...yes. I'd find that offensive and definitely bad for business. But a book in a drawer? I don't think so.

And it's obviously NOT bad business, since very few people complain about it and in fact, many people like it and find it a comforting thing...even if they don't read it. It's something that feels familiar. As I said, it's a pretty seedy hotel indeed if it doesn't even have a Gideon Bible.

Most hotels have a list of churches and synagogues in their information binders. Do you consider this inappropriate or bad for business as well?

jewelsong wrote:

Oh, come on. A Bible hidden in a nightstand is hardly "proselytizing."

I disagree. It's subtle proselytizing, but the Bibles are certainly not placed there just for the convenience of Christians who forgot their own. Further, the Gideons themselves describe their work as evangelism, which should settle the matter.

Quote:

Most hotels have a list of churches and synagogues in their information binders. Do you consider this inappropriate or bad for business as well?

No. This is a useful service for people on the road and is directly related to business hotels are in. More importantly, they aren't giving you the contents of the services. Imagine if they delivered sermon tapes to every room on Sunday mornings.

Dave_LF wrote:

I disagree. It's subtle proselytizing, but the Bibles are certainly not placed there just for the convenience of Christians who forgot their own. Further, the Gideons themselves describe their work as evangelism, which should settle the matter.?

Well, it is a subtle difference, but evangelism does not necessarily mean proselytizing, which has a somewhat negative connotation.

"To induce or recruit someone to convert to one's own religious faith."

So we will have to agree to disagree. I intensely dislike outward proselytizing because it disrupts and or interrupts, but I do not find the Gideon Bibles offensive or disruptive in the least. They are simply there.

Don't read it or even open the drawer. I doubt it will come out and bite you or anything....and convert you by osmosis.

jewelsong wrote:

Don't read it or even open the drawer. I doubt it will come out and bite you or anything....and convert you by osmosis.

Though that does appear to be what the Gideons think will happen.

(the osmosis part, that is)

Dave, I agree with you. To me it is subtle and I personally don't like it either.

Uh oh, Jewel, Eru also thinks it is subtle. Are you going to jump down her throat as well? Ask her questions about wanting to destroy everything religious.

Just because the gideon has become ubiquitous, why should I (an atheist) simply accept that? You don't see it as proselytizing, but then again, you're a christian. You think the koran and buddhist text was cool? Good for you. Are you trying to insinuate that because you're okay with it, everyone else should be?

As for the list of churches, many hotels don't actually list them, but you can get the list from the front desk if you want. Is that a big deal? No, because they also have attraction lists, restaurant lists, taxi lists, etc. I've been in a lot of hotels this summer since I've been on tour.

Would I destroy everything religious? I might, if I was the dictator of the world. I may try to find a more practical use as well. Just because I'm against the gideon in your hotel room doesn't mean I'm the monster you seem to be trying to make me out as.

I generally forget about the Bibles in the nightstand, so it isn't as though I care enough to do something about them, but I'd kind of prefer that they be absent. I mean, if someone wants a Bible/Qu'ran/Torah/whatever in their hotel room, can't they just bring one? Otherwise it seems to me like an insinuation that everyone should be reading the Bible. I'm sure that's what the Gideons mean by placing them there, whether or not that's their stated mission. It's much different from the existence of temples or churches or mosques. You can freely choose never to enter a place of worship if you aren't religious, and it won't affect any other part of your life. It's much more inconvenient to find a hotel room free of religious symbols. Like I said, I don't care enough about it to not stay in a hotel room with a Bible. I'd still rather the Bibles weren't there.