board77

Dave_LF wrote:

[
Except they aren't arguing that the Bible should be taught because it's popular or true and wholesome; they're arguing it should be taught because knowing the stories is important for understanding references and allusions in US history and culture. And I'm saying if we accept that, then it follows that we should teach the Greek and Roman myths for the same reason.

... our language and literature is filled with references to those stories, just like the Biblical ones. e.g. Pandora's box, the word "clue", Yule and Easter traditions, the names we give to the days of the week, etc.

We already DO teach the Greek and Roman myths. As I said before, most public schools have a entire year (at least) in their social studies curriculum where the Greeks and Romans are studied. It is a part of any standard curriculum in US public schools. Even, I bet, in Texas. Most of the time it's in the upper elementary grades (I think when I was a kid, we did it in Grade 6. My son did it in in Grade 4. Grade 6 is now Egyptians.) The last time I taught music in an elementary school, we did a 4th grade musical called "Theseus and the Minotaur" because it was part of their curriculum. Great fun.

I remember becoming absolutely fascinated with the Greek myths, getting every single book in the childrens section of the library out about them and then some. Later on, I plowed through Mary Renault's "The Bull from the Sea" and "The King Must Die." These are novelizations of the Greek myths and I would not have enjoyed them nearly as much had I not known the original stories.

Similarly, Anita Diamant's novel "The Red Tent" is based on the story of Dinah in the Old Testament. It's a terrific book, beautifully written and imagined, but I wouldn't have gotten nearly as much out of it had I not known the original story from Genesis and been familiar with the characters.

And of course, Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat" is based entirely on the story of Joseph and his brothers from the Old Testament, with very little changed...every single character is represented. Although I doubt the original Pharoah was an Elvis impersonator.

Eru wrote:

I don't see any reason why anyone NEEDS to study the stories of the bible. "Building blocks of our culture today" doesn't do it for me. Morality can be learned without religion.

Eru, with all due respect, you seem to be missing the point. Nobody is talking about teaching morality here. And nobody is talking about religion.

Nobody NEEDS to study anything, really. People live perfectly pleasant and productive lives while remaining ignorant of all sorts of things. I mean, nobody NEEDS to study Shakespeare, either. But to do so enriches your life, your experience and your understanding of many things - art, music, literature, poetry and so on. Ditto for Greek myths. Ditto for the stories in the Bible.

jewelsong wrote:

We already DO teach the Greek and Roman myths. As I said before, most public schools have a entire year (at least) in their social studies curriculum where the Greeks and Romans are studied. It is a part of any standard curriculum in US public schools. Even, I bet, in Texas.

It isn't mandatory, though. If they're going to make a Bible study elective mandatory for the reasons they gave, then consistency demands they do the same for studies of classical and Norse mythology, IMO.

Quote:

It isn't mandatory, though. If they're going to make a Bible study elective mandatory for the reasons they gave, then consistency demands they do the same for studies of classical and Norse mythology, IMO.

It is. They do it in 3rd Grade.

From here: http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/rules/tac ... index.html

Chapter 113. Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills for Social Studies
Grade 3
(13) Culture. The student understands the role of real and mythical heroes in shaping the culture of communities, the state, and the nation. The student is expected to:
(C) retell the heroic deeds of characters of Greek and Roman myths

Not quite the comprehensive unit I'd like to see, but it is part of the required curriculum. Should there be a High School course as well? Well, I think so and there may well be - but I don't have time to go through the entire document.

Here is the text of the new bill (emphasis mine):

Quote:

SECTION 2. Section 28.002(a), Education Code, is amended to
read as follows:
(a) Each school district that offers kindergarten through
grade 12 shall offer, as a required curriculum:
(1) a foundation curriculum that includes:
(A) English language arts;
(B) mathematics;
(C) science; and
(D) social studies, consisting of Texas, United
States, and world history, government, and geography; and
(2) an enrichment curriculum that includes:
(A) to the extent possible, languages other than
English;
(B) health, with emphasis on the importance of
proper nutrition and exercise;
(C) physical education;
(D) fine arts;
(E) economics, with emphasis on the free
enterprise system and its benefits;
(F) career and technology education; [and]
(G) technology applications; and
(H) the history and literature of the Old and New
Testaments eras as provided by Section 28.011.

It appears the info you quoted is based on interpreting 1.D above to include mythology. I would argue that 2.H belongs in the same place, if it's going to be there at all.

Also; I'm not a lawyer, but as I read this the curriculum in the Texas Administrative Code is set by the board of education, while the bill above was enacted by the Legislature, which prevents the BoE from tinkering with it. In other words, a course in classical mythology is required by the school board, but not by the law. A course in Old and New Testament history is required by law, though the students are not required to take it.

jewelsong wrote:

Eru, with all due respect, you seem to be missing the point. Nobody is talking about teaching morality here. And nobody is talking about religion.

Nobody NEEDS to study anything, really. People live perfectly pleasant and productive lives while remaining ignorant of all sorts of things. I mean, nobody NEEDS to study Shakespeare, either. But to do so enriches your life, your experience and your understanding of many things - art, music, literature, poetry and so on. Ditto for Greek myths. Ditto for the stories in the Bible.

No, I don't feel I am. What enriches one person's life will not necessarily do the same for another person.

What's going on is that I do not agree with your point and am never likely to do so.

jewel wrote:

We already DO teach the Greek and Roman myths. As I said before, most public schools have a entire year (at least) in their social studies curriculum where the Greeks and Romans are studied. It is a part of any standard curriculum in US public schools.

I had one unit in a seventh grade English class on Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology. It probably lasted less than a month. Oh, and we also read the Odyssey in ninth grade. So, nowhere near a full year. Sounds like this varies widely depending on the school district.

On your point of having to understand the Biblical reference story to enjoy any work based on them - I don't agree it's true at all, or at least not for all people. I recently read a novel about David's queen Michel - I had never even heard the name Michel before and knew nothing about David except that he killed Goliath and stole some other dude's wife at some point. Literally nothing else. And I loved the book. If a story is good and well written (or a painting or a piece of music, etc, is well done) it will stand on its own and tell its story without needing to rely on prior knowledge.

Biblical literature is, like most areas of education beyond the basic level, valuable only if you see it to be. If it was up to me, introductory philosophy would be a required course in high school. But I happen to be really interested in philosophy. Biblical literature, not so much. I went to Sunday School as a child so I understand a lot of Biblical references, but I can't imagine that my own life would be any less enriched if I didn't know those references. As far as I'm concerned, it's just an area of knowledge which is useful when I'm watching Jeopardy. I can certainly see the number of areas in which the Bible has influenced other aspects of our culture. Someone interested in studying English or art history at an advanced level would almost have to have a decent knowledge of Biblical stories. But I tend to be more interested in the influence of Christianity itself than of the Bible as literature--I studied political science, so Christianity as a whole was far more important for me than just studying the Bible.

For me, Handel's Messiah is beautiful regardless of whether you understand its Christian roots. Michelangelo's David was no less spectacular to me before I knew for sure that it was a statue of King David. The Divine Comedy remains one of my favorite works of literature despite the fact that I am clueless as to most of its references (some of which are Biblical, some of which are not).

Erunáme wrote:

No, I don't feel I am. What enriches one person's life will not necessarily do the same for another person.

Okay, fine. Only that's not what you said a few posts back. You said that you didn't want to learn about the stories in the Bible because "Morality can be learned without religion."

Only nobody is talking about using the Bible to teach morality or religion and doing so is certainly not what I am advocating or promoting.

Let me ask you this (and I am asking honestly) - do you think there is any body of work, literature or history that should be taught across the board? That all students should learn? Almost all schools teach Shakespeare, for instance, yet some students may not feel that enriches their lives. Do you feel that any part of the curriculum should be mandatory? Or should students be allowed to choose what they like or feel is important? And who should decide what stays, what goes, what is required and what is to be an elective?

Quote:

What's going on is that I do not agree with your point and am never likely to do so.

I have no problem with that. I just want to be sure we are talking about the same point.

elfshadow wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, it's just an area of knowledge which is useful when I'm watching Jeopardy.

One of my best categories, along with Kiddie Lit and Musicals.

I figure it's always good to learn things, whatever they are. My good intentions probably outweigh my actions or accomplishments by far, but I really like to open the wallunit in my room and see books on middle-earth, islam, egyptology, how to speak italian, classics like moby dick and vanity fair, my teen study bible with random quotes and nice birthday cards stuck inside... idk, some things are important because they are me. Who I want to be, who I was, who my friends are, etc. When I think of things I learned or was exposed to since joining TORC, not sure I would want to forget any of that even if I never ended up going to egypt or converting to the muslim faith or reading any Thackery.

On the more negative side of things, I also enjoyed reading about criminals, or hearing from controversial public figures. Do I need to know to torture and kill? No. But I sure as hell don't want to do those things, so I guess it's like an extreme version of trying to learn from others' mistakes. As for opinions rather than actions, welp, sometimes it's nice to know that the controversy is all hype and nothing I need to worry about. But when it's not, I want to understand as much as possible.

In my experience, everything enriches my life somehow. I like to think of how much I enjoyed The Simpsons in my childhood, and when I became a movie nut in high school and started watching all these classic films, suddenly there was even more references to love on the show. God, Homer, b77ers... it's all snazzy. Usually.




*E*

jewelsong wrote:

Quote:

It isn't mandatory, though. If they're going to make a Bible study elective mandatory for the reasons they gave, then consistency demands they do the same for studies of classical and Norse mythology, IMO.

It is. They do it in 3rd Grade.

From here: http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/rules/tac ... index.html

Chapter 113. Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills for Social Studies
Grade 3
(13) Culture. The student understands the role of real and mythical heroes in shaping the culture of communities, the state, and the nation. The student is expected to:
(C) retell the heroic deeds of characters of Greek and Roman myths.

It might just be the use of the word 'heroic' there, but I find that amusing for some reason. Almost like they expect third-graders to stand in front of a blazing open fire in front of an audience and intone the Illiad Homer-style or something.

I happen to think that those stories would have more value for older kids, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

Is this argument about the importance of the bible on western culture? I certainly won't disagree there.

I had a similar experience as Elian when it came to the Greeks and Romans. No entire year course, just a month or so every couple, or few years in grade school. It's a shame really.

Dave, my disagreement was more of a crack on Texas, than anything else.

I went to school in a different system where religious instruction was mandatory. But it was not all about faith - faith and religion are two different things! Knowing a religion does not make you a believer, often the contrary.

Now, I teach in a system which ist more like the French with a strict separation between state and church where there is no religious instruction at all at school. Although I am a complete atheist, I regret it for my children and even thought about taking them to church school, but the schedule does not work for me. And I repeat I am a complete atheist.

But I also studied litterature and history and I see that there are so many references, allusions, hints you never get if you don't know your bible: of course you can still read and enjoy, especially when it is about music and paintings which are more sensual arts than litterature. This is not about the pleasure you can derive from art - it is indeed as great a pleasure just to look at Michelangelo's David as a hot young man as to know that it is supposed to be David from the Bible. But when you know it, you can see how Michelangelo used the biblic theme to go around one of the major problems before the Renaissance: nudes were forbidden by the church! Between the nudes of the Antiquity and the nudes of the Renaissance, there is a millenary of clothed statues, except Jesus on the cross and that's not ... sexy...
So how do you find a way to sculpt a nude? A biblic theme... but then if you want to measure your skills to those of the antic arts, you'll have to sculpt a beautiful young man. So Jesus on the cross is not it... remains David who is an entirely positive biblic hero, undeniable young. And all this knowledge about how and why to choose a subject to create the art you want in the time in which you live... it is more (for me) than just the physical beauty of the statue. (And this David not only is stunning - I have just seen it in Florence - it also meant a turning point in the history of art to make realistic nudes in the antic style possible again...)

The joy is not diminuished by the shere sensual approach to art. But I (and this engages only me!) prefer to approach also a more intellectual level of art where you try to understand the motivation of the creator, the message of a piece of art, the intentions, the time of creation... to grasp all this, biblic motives are often a great help, as is knowledge of the historical and political background or greek mythology - it all depends what piece of art you are talking about. So far, my children have not learned any mythology and I regret it (and I think of going to Greece next summer and tell them some of those great stories at the places described...). As for the Bible, I have read many of them to the boys when they were smaller in a child version. It's not much. In fact, I think I consider the Bible as the same level as Greek mythology. For me, the God of the Bible is not more real or believable than Zeus. So, I have no problem with studying it, knowing it as a base of our culture.

I also see as a teacher that students who don't have this knowledge at all are disadvantaged in the comprehension of historical documents even of the twentieth century. Even the Soviet often use biblic references in their iconography, like the portraying of their leaders like saints with light behind them. And you are better armed not to be influenced by propaganda when you know where it is coming from (and I deliberately did not take an example of use of religious symbols in Nazi propaganda, but can do so if someone is interested).

oh, and Jewel: Not most schools study Shakespeare... only the English speaking ones... I studies Goethe and Schiller and my step-daughter reads Racine and Flaubert... and what do you do about the beauty of Absalom in the Bible? (David is not the only hottie...)

jewelsong wrote:

First of all, the hotel management is not putting the Bibles into the hotel rooms.

In effect they are. They allow it.

jewelsong wrote:

The Gideons are a private group who are dedicated to distributing free Bibles to people who might not otherwise encounter it. That is all they do.

From http://www.gideons.org/AboutUs/LastingMission.aspx
The Gideons International is an interdenominational association of Christian business and professional men who are members of Protestant/evangelical churches. Our members are dedicated to saving the lost through personal witnessing and the distribution of God's Word...Yep, it's a campaign leaflet and the last thing I want is the leaflet two feet from my head as I try and sleep.

I find it arrogant that they consider I am lost. Keep your religion to yourselves, please. It's the same as a hotel allowing Jehovah's Witnesses to pace up and down corridors, knocking on hotel rooms (just the once per visitor), asking that they save the current occupant.

And who might not encounter the bible? There's the internet, bibles are cheap (and anyone who can afford a hotel room can certainly afford a bible). As I said, it's a campaign leaflet, pushing the 'Word' out to people rather than people coming to them.

I find it amazing they chose the name Gideon, too. From their website:

Much thought was given to what the name of the association should be, and after special prayer that God might lead them to select the proper name, Mr. Knights arose from his knees and said, "We shall be called Gideons."

Gideon was an interesting character. He slaughtered thousands in battle by plotting with the Lord to use treachery, murdered thousands more for worshipping 'false gods' (fatwa anyone), tortured and killed still more for daring to taunt him (USA, anyone) and plundered the bodies of his victims to fashion a jeweled priestly vestment. He also fathered an offspring that murdered 69 of his offspring. Judges 6-9, if you're interested.

jewelsong wrote:

They are not trying to get anyone elected, they are not asking for money, they are not a political or government group.

What is politics? Politics is the methods and tactics used to formulate and apply social policy. It is the struggle for power and dominance. Religion on a grand scale is just the same, looking for power over how people live their lives, hoping to define what is right and what is wrong - only the leader of the party is more ephemeral than most.

jewelsong wrote:

I do not think distributing Bibles can be (or should be) compared with contributing campaign leaflets.

Placing a bible in every hotel room smacks of a political campaign - it's just that they are better organised and better funded than their opponents.

In another thread (IIRC), someone suggested that books be given warning stickers, just as movies have. What would be the sticker for the bible?

WARNING
This book is a work of fiction. Do NOT take it literally.

CONTENT ADVISORY
Contains verses that descriptive of and / or advocating suicide, incest, bestiality, sadomasochism, sexual activity in a violent context, murder, morbid violence, use of drugs or alcohol, homosexuality, revenge, human rights violations, torture, atrocities...

EXPOSURE WARNING
As with all religious scripts, exposure to contents for extended periods of time or during formative years in children can, in some cases, cause delusions, hallucinations, decreased cognitive and objective reasoning abilities and, in extreme cases, pathological disorders, hatred, bigotry and violence including, but not limited to, fanaticism, murder and genocide.

Yes, that's a book that should be in hotel rooms.

I want to say that this has been one of the more interesting discussion on B77 in quite a while. Some very articulate and intelligent posts...so thanks, everyone.

Nin, your post says what I have been trying to say - only much better!

L_M wrote:

It might just be the use of the word 'heroic' there, but I find that amusing for some reason. Almost like they expect third-graders to stand in front of a blazing open fire in front of an audience and intone the Illiad Homer-style or something.
.

I got the same impression LM! It's a great visual, isn't it?

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:

I had a similar experience as Elian when it came to the Greeks and Romans. No entire year course, just a month or so every couple, or few years in grade school. It's a shame really.

The state-wide curriculum for Social Studies has always had a problem with being either too broad or too specific. It used to be a joke in Massachusetts amongst teachers that you didn't really need to research at the state curriculum, because the next year, you'd be teaching something entirely different anyway. They keep switching the grades around and the topics within those grades. The problem is that there is SO MUCH to be taught...how do you fit it all in and still teach English and Maths and Science and so on? You can leave some things out, or you can give kind of "tasters" in lots of things and try to make the kids curious enough to find out more on their own. (Which is what I think all good teaching should do, anyway.)

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:

Is this argument about the importance of the bible on western culture? I certainly won't disagree there.

Good. Because it seemed like that is what some people were saying.

Liddy, you make some good points. I don't agree with the premise of them, but you make some good points nevertheless.

Lidless wrote:

It's the same as a hotel allowing Jehovah's Witnesses to pace up and down corridors, knocking on hotel rooms (just the once per visitor), asking that they save the current occupant.

It is not the same and you know it. One is overt, one is benign. One you cannot avoid, one you can.

For what it's worth, I am not an evangelist. But I have never had a problem with a Bible in my hotel room - as I have said before, I find it a comforting thing when I encounter it being there. As River said, it's part of an overall check on the hotel. No Bible? What else are they missing?

Perhaps the Gideon's ministry is outdated and outmoded in this internet age. Perhaps it is no longer needed. Perhaps it is no longer welcome. Perhaps other books should be placed in hotel rooms...instead of or in addition to.

I know that when I check into a hotel alone, especially when on the road and in an unfamiliar area...not a city, but a remote road stop hotel like a Motel 6, I appreciate finding a book in the nightstand. I don't mind that it is the Bible, but I wouldn't mind finding another book as well.

What book(s) would you suggest? If you could place one book in the majority of hotel rooms around the world, what book would it be?

I once joked on TORC that it was my mission to see that a copy of LOTR was found in every hotel room in the world.

In fantasyland, it would be The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge. Alas it's bigger than the Bible and wouldn't fit in many bedside tables. The Whitfield Six problem I find closer to the 'divine' than anything in the Old Testament.

If it had to be religious in nature, it would be a dry, neutral theological synopsis and compare-contrast of all the world's major religions. No doubt my hotel room has been occupied in the past by most of them. OK it's not a comfort book, but then again it's an educational book, and, to use a phrase, God knows how much people need that.

I just hate the fact Christians are given special treatment by hotel management. Imagine the backlash and boycotting if the Marriott chain agreed that the Koran be placed in every one of their hotel rooms by an outside group.

Ain't ever gonna happen.

But let's face it, the real purpose of a hotel-supplied book should be one that helps the occupier go to sleep in a strange room. Thus it should be as boring as possible. I offer, therefore, Greek Rural Postmen and their Cancellation Numbers - a comprehensive record of Greece's postal routes, is published by the Greek Hellenic Philatelic Society of Great Britain, which "exists to encourage the collection of Greek stamps and to promote their study".

Lidless wrote:

Imagine the backlash and boycotting if the Marriott chain agreed that the Koran be placed in every one of their hotel rooms by an outside group.

Ain't ever gonna happen.

I have been in at least two hotels recently that had a copy of the Koran. I don't think there would be a huge backlash - it would be a matter of the group doing a good job of lobbying the hotel chain(s)

My favorite book to find in the nightstand so far was a book on the tenets of Buddhism. This was beside a copy of the Koran and the Bible. Three books to choose from! I felt very privileged.

Quote:

But let's face it, the real purpose of a hotel-supplied book should be one that helps the occupier go to sleep in a strange room. Thus it should be as boring as possible. I offer, therefore, Greek Rural Postmen and their Cancellation Numbers - a comprehensive record of Greece's postal routes, is published by the Greek Hellenic Philatelic Society of Great Britain, which "exists to encourage the collection of Greek stamps and to promote their study".

ROFL. This is a real book? And do you have a copy?

BTW, I love your idea of having a copy of LOTR in every hotel. Certainly it exists in plenty of translations. However, LOTR is quite lengthy and requires concentration to read. Therefore, I suggest we start with a copy of "The Hobbit" instead.

I don't think that any of you can imagine that it would actually mean that some people would rip that copy apart. I know my brother would. He considers LOTR as complete utter crap and bullshit.

In the hotels in which I stayed lately was no book at all be it a bible or any other and I thought the custome to put a bible in a hotel room was abandoned.

Oh it's real alright.

Have fun here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookseller ... f_the_Year

Liddy, that is awesome!

I loved the Diagram Group prizes. Even the runners up were classics and many have not been recorded.
The Atlas of Conservative Dentistry *ah fond sigh*

Back to the subject. It's clear that religion stirs strong passions though there has to be a bit more offense to stir my juices. My reaction is to shrug and ignore it. If I read the Bible I insist on the King James version anyway for the language. Jewel, you say that seeing the Koran would interest you and perhaps I'd have a go at it too but don't you think that many of your co-religionists (not your individual church because I know you would instinctively search out a liberal and humane congregation) would go purple and froth at finding one in their hotel drawer and even dispose of it?
Or to give another example what about The Communist Manifesto? Imagine a group of communists going around South Carolina's hotels popping that into hotel rooms? What would be the reaction of the press?
So it isn't only about providing a good read or some spiritual solace or something neutral; its about proselytising and one's reactions to that depend on who is doing it.