board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Minister- Obama should die and go to hell

Post Reply   Page 5 of 7  [ 124 posts ]
Jump to page « 13 4 5 6 7 »
Author Message
Lurker
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 5:16 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Wed 16 Mar , 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Body in Calgary, Alberta, Soul in Toronto
 
Quote:
It's easy to point the finger at the Roman Catholic church as the root of some religious evil because they are responsible for a great deal of evil. I don't believe anyone has claimed that they're responsible for all religious evil. It would be silly to claim such a thing. It would also be silly to claim that someone else has claimed such a thing if nobody has done so.
So what do you call River's post then?

That's what I'm trying to say, why cite only the Roman Catholic Church when we are talking about all religions in this discussion. You clearly said it Jude "some" but not all, and the people in this discussion where referring to all religion, so I don't see the connection why only the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the minister in this discussion is a protestant, the Roman Catholic Church has no influence over him nor other religions in particular. Just because one crazy lunatic uses the pulpit to spew hate doesn't mean that all religions are that bad.

Wow, the atrocities of the Roman Catholic Church happened a long, long time ago and yet we still connect it to what is happening in the world today. :scratch: Why don't somebody discusss the atrocities of other religion as well, man, why just cite one. C'mon!!!

I'm just citing an analogy (generalization) Elsha, that's why I said it's like saying the US is the root of all evil. When of course we all know that the US is the cause of "some" not all.

_________________

Caution...You are entering the NO SPIN ZONE.


Top
Profile Quote
*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 5:25 pm
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
Offline
 
Posts: 11477
Joined: Fri 29 Oct , 2004 2:22 am
 
Maybe it's as simple as River is more learned in the catholic history than with islam or judaism or xenu & company.




*E*

_________________

[ img ] For always.


Top
Profile Quote
Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 6:22 pm
bioalchemist
Offline
 
Posts: 5205
Joined: Wed 16 Mar , 2005 2:10 am
Location: at a safe distance
 
elfshadow wrote:
Lurker wrote:
I thought we were talking about religions, in general. I don't see the relevance of your post to the discussion by pointing out the mistakes of the Roman Catholic Church. How about the Jewish faith, the Muslim faith?

Why is that when we talk about religion it's so easy to point our finger towards the Roman Catholic Church.
I think River discussed the Catholic Church specifically because Western society was so vitally shaped by the influence of the Catholic Church--not of the Jewish faith or of Islam. This is a discussion on the failings and benefits of religion, if I'm reading correctly, and because of the enormous power that the Church had over Western civilization for so many hundreds of years, the failings of the Church have impacted those of us in the West to a huge degree. It's impossible to discuss the formation of religion today, in the West, without discussing the mistakes of the Catholic Church.

As to why it's so easy to "point the finger" at the Catholic Church, I don't think you can possibly deny the corruptness and greed of the Church during the Middle Ages, and even for a time after that. Today, the Church focuses heavily on doing charity and good works, and you certainly won't hear me deny that--I received an excellent and well-rounded education from a Jesuit university. But that is really a more recent development, and for hundreds of years the Catholic Church did people great wrong. I think the power of the Church really served to stagnate the progression of Western civilization by centuries.
This. We're talking about the influence of religion on modern society and we need to put it in a historical context. Western European history is the history I am most familiar with and the history that has had the dominant role in making the world what it is right now. And you can't deny the powerful role the Catholic Church played in that - for centuries, they were the only game in town and you can't deny they turned to violence to protect that position when it became threatened. And if you were a kingdom in the east that wanted to do any business with the west, you needed the recognition of the Pope. The Serbs, who are Orthodox almost by definition, sainted the guy who got that done for them.

Also, I was posting from an airport. And now I need to run because my husband is yelling at me.

_________________

"He attacks. And here I can kill him. But I don't. That's the answer to world peace, people."
-Stickles Shihan


Top
Profile Quote
Lurker
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 7:32 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Wed 16 Mar , 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Body in Calgary, Alberta, Soul in Toronto
 
Are we the only game in town now?
FYI, the minister in question was from another Christian denomination (if you can call them that), not the RCC.

You said it your self it's "history" from the middle ages, so what's the connection with regards to the RCC having influence on people to commit these atrocities in the modern era. So do we still need the permission of the pope to do business?
Quote:
Maybe it's as simple as River is more learned in the catholic history than with islam or judaism or xenu & company.
Just because somebody is more knowledgable of a particular religion doesn't mean that she can just cite that religion and assume that people will agree that is applicable to all religions. C'mon, if it's a generalization, then your post should be in the same context.

_________________

Caution...You are entering the NO SPIN ZONE.


Top
Profile Quote
Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 7:56 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 2420
Joined: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
 
For the record, I think that Islam is far and away responsible for more continuing evil in the world than any Christian denomination. That said, I'd rank the Catholic Church second, in a large part because of the damage its position on condoms does in already overpopulated and AIDS-ridden Sub-Saharan Africa.

_________________

[Space for Rent]


Top
Profile Quote
jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 7:57 pm
Just keep singin'!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 1729
Joined: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 9:26 pm
Location: UK
 
Lurker wrote:
You said it your self it's "history" from the middle ages, so what's the connection with regards to the RCC having influence on people to commit these atrocities in the modern era. So do we still need the permission of the pope to do business?
.
I'm sorry, Lurker, but I think the RCC has a LOT to answer for as an organization. And not just in the middle ages, but recently. The structure and hierarchy of the organization means that the Church has been able to get away with way too much for way too long.

The recent child abuse scandal is a case in point. The abuse went on for decades. The higher-ups KNEW about it. They counseled the parents who came to them to not go to the police, to let the church handle things. The church handled things by simply moving the offending priests to another parish, or worse, by calling the parents' honesty and piety into question. Cardinal Law from Boston called down the power of the Almighty to smite the Boston Globe newspaper when they first dared to publish even a whiff of the scandal.

Even now, I do not think that the Church really understands the full import of the problem. I think it was endemic for such a long, long time...the people in charge kind of got used to it and shrugged it off. It was tacitly condoned.

This is an example of systemic failure at a very high level. And I do believe (and, yes, this is simply my own opinion) that although the RCC has lofty many individual examples of holiness and devout members, that it is, at its core, a deeply flawed organization that needs a major overhaul from within.

The chances of this happening are probably about the same as a snowball's in hell...but that is what I feel is needed if the RCC is serious about doing Jesus' work.


Top
Profile Quote
Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 8:45 pm
bioalchemist
Offline
 
Posts: 5205
Joined: Wed 16 Mar , 2005 2:10 am
Location: at a safe distance
 
Bloody fucking hell...

Lurker, go back and read my posts. In their entirety. Every single word. And then untwist your panties. Please.

I never said the RCC is the only game in town. I said that for a long time, they were. As in, in the past. Not in the present. The Reformation changed that. Furthermore, I've been using the role of the RCC in the history of Western Europe purely as an example that I and everyone else here is likely to be familiar with. If I were more familiar with the ins and outs of South Asia and the ebb and flow of religions in that part of the world, I'd probably be talking about that instead and everyone here could feel more or less safe because they don't have a vested interest in the region or the religion. But, alas, I'm not.

_________________

"He attacks. And here I can kill him. But I don't. That's the answer to world peace, people."
-Stickles Shihan


Top
Profile Quote
*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 9:25 pm
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
Offline
 
Posts: 11477
Joined: Fri 29 Oct , 2004 2:22 am
 
Lurker wrote:
Just because somebody is more knowledgable of a particular religion doesn't mean that she can just cite that religion and assume that people will agree that is applicable to all religions.
She didn't, I didn't, it isn't.




*E*

_________________

[ img ] For always.


Top
Profile Quote
Lurker
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 9:31 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Wed 16 Mar , 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Body in Calgary, Alberta, Soul in Toronto
 
E in due respect, you friend can post her reason herself no need to defend her. :P
Riverthalos wrote:
Bloody fucking hell...

Lurker, go back and read my posts. In their entirety. Every single word. And then untwist your panties. Please.
C'mon when did we resort to cursing now? Why can't just say it in a civilized manner. If your husband is yelling at you, don't you bloody yell at me okay. Your husband has no right to yell at you in the first place, IMHO.

Unfortunately, it's wash today my red gradma ruffled panties are hanging on the clothes line to dry so I'm wearing these tight thongs instead, can't you tell.

_________________

Caution...You are entering the NO SPIN ZONE.


Top
Profile Quote
ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 10:08 pm
Filthy darwinian hobbit
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6921
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 12:52 pm
Location: Silly Suffolk
 
Quote:
so I'm wearing these tight thongs instead, can't you tell.
You see, there's always a simple explanation for everything.

_________________

[ img ]
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos

Norwich Beer Festival 2009


Top
Profile Quote
vison
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 10:27 pm
Best friends forever
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6546
Joined: Fri 04 Feb , 2005 4:49 am
 
Rather than attacking River for telling the truth, Lurker, why don't you explain why it all happened?

_________________

Living on Earth is expensive,
but it does include a free trip
around the sun every year.


Top
Profile Quote
Lurker
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 11:33 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Wed 16 Mar , 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Body in Calgary, Alberta, Soul in Toronto
 
Are we tag teaming now? :D

I was not attacking her, she was the one who cursed first, remember? We are having a discussion here and IMHO, if you start cursing, you're the one who should get out of the hot kitchen.

Why should I defend the RCC, this is not a thread about the atrocities of the RCC, this is a thread about religions having a huge influence on people, remember. So I don't see why bringing up the atrocities of the RCC is relevant to this thread in the first place. My defense of the RCC is irrelevant to this topic.

_________________

Caution...You are entering the NO SPIN ZONE.


Top
Profile Quote
Eruname
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 11:47 pm
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 8748
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:24 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website
 
I haven't seen someone misread or completely miss what someone is saying here for a while. :bang:

_________________

Abandon this fleeting world
abandon yourself.
Then the moon and flowers
will guide you along the way.

-Ryokan

http://wanderingthroughmiddleearth.blogspot.com/


Top
Profile Quote
*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 12:17 am
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
Offline
 
Posts: 11477
Joined: Fri 29 Oct , 2004 2:22 am
 
Lurker wrote:
E in due respect, you friend can post her reason herself no need to defend her. :P
She did, I wasn't.

Though apparently we agreed that you misread her post.




*E*

_________________

[ img ] For always.


Top
Profile Quote
TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 5:35 am
Insolent Pup
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5381
Joined: Wed 09 Mar , 2005 8:31 pm
Location: Many Places
 
Religion is the root of all evil, but I blame the RCC the most. Why? Just because I can.

_________________

The 11/3 Project


Top
Profile Quote
nienna
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 8:38 am
The best things in life are not things
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu 02 Jul , 2009 3:32 pm
Location: west of West
 
Though presumably the RCC has abandoned the days of waging a Holy War/Jihad now?

Which is more than can be said for other religions...


although it could be argued that the RCC policies on homosexuality and contraception have far more wide-reaching effects than terrorist attrocities...

Last edited by nienna on Sun 06 Sep , 2009 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

_________________

There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes


Top
Profile Quote
Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 8:53 am
bioalchemist
Offline
 
Posts: 5205
Joined: Wed 16 Mar , 2005 2:10 am
Location: at a safe distance
 
With all due respect, I think I have a proven track record of taking care of myself. If people are leaping to my side, that should tell you something.

The discussion has multiple threads to it but part of it was how religion became so influential in the first place. I cited Christianity because it seemed most relevant (no one was talking about Islam or Judaism) and because, in many ways, the story is complete(ish) and recent(ish). The Catholic Church came up because, I repeat, European history is what I'm most familiar with and, before the Reformation, Christians in Europe were either Catholic or Orthodox and that depended on which part of the continent you lived in. I can't speak much of Eastern Orthodoxy, other than my impression is it was different, and that the rise of Communism was what beat the Orthodox Church's influence off from the state. Furthermore, we've got reliable records of the rise of Christianity's influence and how that influence was diminished. In Judaism, that history is so old it's almost shrouded in myth and I'm not so familiar with it to start with. I'm not sure the history of Judaism is a good parallel to Christianity anyway because Judaism has a fundamentally different approach to things and if there ever was a covert-and-conquer attitude going on in Judaism, it died out millenia ago. Islam would be a better comparison, but Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity and while they've had one big fight (the break between Shiites and Sunnis) and I've seen some articles suggesting that Islam is currently in dire need of, and heading towards, its own version of the Reformation, they haven't had one yet and so we've got a rise but no fall and to my mind that leaves the story only halfway written. Not going to be a fun thing to live through, for sure - the Christian Reformation drove my ancestors and the ancestors of a lot of other people to the New World - but oppressive power structures eventually collapse on themselves. Eventually.

_________________

"He attacks. And here I can kill him. But I don't. That's the answer to world peace, people."
-Stickles Shihan


Top
Profile Quote
Lidless
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 9:53 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
Offline
 
Posts: 8261
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 8:21 pm
Location: London
 
Lurker, the main point is that *any* religion that has a stranglehold on the social and political agenda will abuse that power and end up making excesses contrary to their underlying beliefs.

An organised religion is a human construct, not a religious one, and as such has the same built in egos, fallabilities and twisting of words and ideas to suit their purpose - that of retention and expansion of power. Any killings are in the name of that religion, not in the name of God.

It just so happened that the RCC was the one in charge in Europe in the Middle Ages and the one we know most about.
Riverthalos wrote:
And now I need to run because my husband is yelling at me.
In which direction?


As for the idea of a god, I worked out a reasonableness test as a teenager, which ran to several paragraphs. It turns out someone else had the same idea but put it far more succinctly.

You and I are both atheists. The only difference is that I believe in one less god than you. If you understand why you have rejected all the other religions and gods throughout history, you will understand why I have rejected yours.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 10:13 am
Just keep singin'!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 1729
Joined: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 9:26 pm
Location: UK
 
Okay, okay, everybody - just CALM down. :)

They used to tell you never to discuss either religion or politics in polite company, like a dinner party. Of course, this is not a dinner party and not all of us are always polite. Plus, discussion of religion and politics is usually quite interesting and stimulating. It can also get quite heated and sometimes personal.

The thing to remember is that discussion of a religious organization (ie: the RCC or Nation of Islam) is NOT the same as discussion of the tenets of the faith itself and it is certainly NOT the same as discussing an individual's particular faith and beliefs.

Lurker. No one is holding you responsible for the failings of the RCC in the past or the present. And vison, I don't think Lurker should really be required (or even asked) to "explain" these failings. I mean, honestly... ;)

River is correct - this thread is about how religion became so powerful in the first place. Organized religion, not personal faith. The rise of Christianity was in a large part due to a political move by Constantine in 313. If he had not decided that mass conversion to Christianity was good politics, the new religion may well have remained more of less on the fringe. Instead, the newly-powerful Roman Catholic Church became, as River said, the only game in town. Christians were no longer holding their meetings in secret and being persecuted by the Romans - now they WERE the Romans.

And - surprise! The newly-powerful Christian organization proved to be just as corrupt as the former one that had been persecuting them.

Not all Christians appreciated this turn of events and this is when some split off and started living as monks and so on - they did not believe a Christian should be so concerned with earthly things.

The Reformation didn't begin to happen until the mid-1500s...more than a thousand years after Constantine made his political move. That gave the RCC a LOT of time to become one of the most powerful organizations in the world. If you visit the Vatican, you will see some of the spoils of this victory...almost everything in the Vatican was basically stolen. Beautiful stuff. But stolen nonetheless.

Islam is the only other major world religion that believes its major mission is world-wide conversion (by any means.) I think one of the reasons we have not seen more Islamic-based atrocities as Islam rises in popularity and power is that there is no real "seat" of Islam...no one person in charge, so to speak. They are very disorganized, compared to the RCC, which has, literally, its own country. And although the RCC certainly is less powerful as an organization than it was 500 years ago, it still hold considerable power and sway over its adherents. As recently as 50 years ago (and maybe still!) children in Catholic Schools (in the US at least!) were taught that non-Catholics were destined for hell. Not non-Christians, mind...non-Catholics.

As an organization, they are incredibly myopic and even cruel. Two recent individual examples:

A 9 year old girl in Brazil was raped by her step-father and found to be pregnant with twins. The doctors feared that her uterus was too small and she would die from the pregnancy. Her mother secured her an abortion on advice of the doctor. (This met both criteria for a legal abortion in Brazil - incest and possible death of the mother.) The Catholic Church excommunicated both the mother and the doctor. (Not the step-father rapist, mind.) They said that "those twins should have been given a chance!"

And a smaller, less painful example, but still pertinent. A child in the US was making her first communion. She had a severe wheat allergy and the parents applied for a special dispensation from the Church for her to have a wafer made of rice. The answer? No. The family has now left the church; I think they became Episcopalians.

The RCC today seems to have very little connection to or understanding of the very people to whom it is supposed to be ministering. It seems to be more concerned with itself as an organization (a powerful organization) than with doing Jesus' work.

Yes, there are plenty of individual Catholics who ARE trying to do the work of Jesus and ARE trying to follow the tenets of the faith. But to be honest, I think their church is hindering them, not helping them.


Top
Profile Quote
Eruname
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 3:00 pm
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 8748
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:24 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website
 
jewelsong wrote:
They used to tell you never to discuss either religion or politics in polite company, like a dinner party.
When I go home I'm going to have to make sure no discussion of politics comes up with my parents because they're Bill O'Reilly, FOX News (and possibly Glenn Beck) watching folk. It's led to some heated arguments before and I'm going to have to be careful not to let it happen on my trip home.
Quote:
As recently as 50 years ago (and maybe still!) children in Catholic Schools (in the US at least!) were taught that non-Catholics were destined for hell. Not non-Christians, mind...non-Catholics.
Some still do...at least in the late 1990's. I had one Catholic friend tell me that anyone who wasn't Catholic was going to hell...even Protestants. This was in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas.

_________________

Abandon this fleeting world
abandon yourself.
Then the moon and flowers
will guide you along the way.

-Ryokan

http://wanderingthroughmiddleearth.blogspot.com/


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 5 of 7  [ 124 posts ]
Return to “The Symposium” | Jump to page « 13 4 5 6 7 »
Jump to: