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Minister- Obama should die and go to hell

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Thu 03 Sep , 2009 9:49 pm
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
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I'm not saying love and compassion are divine, it's just something that these holy books implore us to act on because it is in us to to do. Of course you should take credit for yourself. I'm glad for everything I accomplish in a day, even if it's not much. But I'm also glad for the chance to accomplish anything, because whoever's hands that's in are not mine. And the times I felt the opposite of love and compassion for anyone? Those things are human, too. I try not to act on them because it seems wrong and useless. They don't just give you diplomas, you have to work for them. Even with all the distractions most schools have. :shrug:

I don't always understand God but I understand humans even less. There's no reason to trust them just because we're the same species. And if he doesn't "talk" back in a language or voice I can understand, that's fine... neither does my dog but we enjoy each other's company. If conversations with people are more tangible, then I feel the intangible is what leads me where I need to go most often.




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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 12:49 am
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I don't always understand God but I understand humans even less. There's no reason to trust them just because we're the same species. And if he doesn't "talk" back in a language or voice I can understand, that's fine... neither does my dog but we enjoy each other's company. If conversations with people are more tangible, then I feel the intangible is what leads me where I need to go most often.
I enjoy a dog's company as well. Because the dog is real. If I sat with a god for company, I might as well sit with a teddy bear, or alone.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 1:03 am
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
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Because the teddy bears preach intolerance and are of no value whatsoever. Gotcha.




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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 1:17 am
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Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
Lord_Morningstar wrote:
Modern liberal churches promote a watered-down and secularized form of Christianity, otherwise they would struggle to attract open-minded and rational people. So they latch on to Jesus’ command to love your neighbor as yourself, while ignoring his admonition to parents who fail to kill their disobedient children in accordance with Old Testament Law
Um ... where does Jesus say this????? :scratch:
That's my reading of Matthew 15: 1-6 -
Quote:
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
Quote:
What Jesus actually preaches in his reported sayings in the Synoptic Gospels is the need for people to repent of their sins and prepare for God’s imminent judgment of humanity. The idea that he teaches a message of tolerance and love can, in my view, only come from a pretty selective reading. It almost seems to me that liberal Christians put the cart before the horse – they believe that love and tolerance and everything are good on rational, utilitarian grounds and then try to use their religion to justify them.
Such a view usefully ignores how loving Jesus is and also how radical he is. As a rabbi, he was spiritually contaminated by the woman with an obvious menstrual problem who touched him (Matthew 9:20-22; Mark 5:25-34; Luke 8:43-47), thus violating an ancient taboo, but this plainly didn't bother or disgust him in the least. In fact, he broke the taboo into smithereens. He was also accused of being a 'friend of sinnners' because he hung out with prostitutes and other despised segments of society.
He did break taboos, but it hardly changes his central message in my view.
Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
Quote:
In some ways, liberal Christianity actually annoys me more than Fundamentalist, Bible-thumping Christianity. At least the people who go on about how the gay people are going to burn in hell can cite chapters from the book that they consider to be divinely-inspired rather than talking about a ‘general message’. It’s almost like they’re being more honest.
As one who would identify herself as an 'evangelical', i.e. I believe in a literal resurrection, for example, I don't think your depiction of liberal Christianity is terribly fair. There is often more common ground between the evangelical and liberal constituencies than is sometimes assumed: both 'sides' agree that 'God is love' is a major theme (not the only theme, but a major theme) in the New Testament. And it's not like the Old Testament is completely silent on the subject either. (One of my pet peeves is the belief that God in the OT is a crusty old so-and-so who has a sudden personality transplant with the coming of Jesus. This popular belief manages to denigrate both Judaism and Christianity, IMO. :D )
I’m not aware of any point at which the OT identifies God as being loving, and the NT is from memory fairly quiet on the subject as well (I’m not even sure if God is ever described as being loving anywhere in the Synoptic Gospels).

Just to keep discussing Christianity, people claim that intolerant and fundamentalist interpretations of the Gospels are wrong and misrepresentations. Yet for most of the religion’s history they were the most widely accepted – even in the view of learned theologians. The militant religion of Urban IX and Tomas de Torquemada was the norm for over three-quarters of the time that the books of the New Testament have been held up as being divinely-inspired. It was only the rise of liberal secular values in the Enlightenment that made liberal Christianity mainstream, and I can’t help but ask, if Christianity by default is a religion of love and tolerance, why it didn’t manifest itself as such sooner.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 4:08 am
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Lord_Morningstar wrote:
Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
Lord_Morningstar wrote:
Modern liberal churches promote a watered-down and secularized form of Christianity, otherwise they would struggle to attract open-minded and rational people. So they latch on to Jesus’ command to love your neighbor as yourself, while ignoring his admonition to parents who fail to kill their disobedient children in accordance with Old Testament Law
Um ... where does Jesus say this????? :scratch:
That's my reading of Matthew 15: 1-6 -
Quote:
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
My take on that is that Jesus wasn't telling the representatives of The Establishment to go kill their disobedient children. He was simply pointing out that if they're already breaking some of the rules (ie, not killing their disobedient children) and are apparently okay with that, they should be okay with him and his disciples breaking a few more rules (ie, not washing one's hands before eating).

Last edited by Riverthalos on Fri 04 Sep , 2009 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 4:10 am
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
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I might wonder if we're a species gifted with rationality and common sense, it's only been in the last century that women could vote, schools were allowed to mix races, and gay marriage was even taken seriously. 100% of the opposition cannot be blamed on devout religious beliefs, or the inability to think for one's self. Maybe there was some evolution or devolution along the way. I like to think we're getting better at this whole humanity thing. If there is more tolerance and understanding now than in other millenniums, whoo, go earth.

If I may pull from my own observations here? Dad: thinks Jesus is the greatest man who ever lived, doesn't believe in the divinity crap, is a proud homophobe; Mom: doesn't believe in religion, thinks it's wrong to be gay, possible racist; Papa: can't wait for hell to be with his friends, thinks the lord owes him one, is not a racist because as he puts it "I love n___!" With that sampling, I could be pretty confused about what just one religion out of many is supposed to mean, and if it has any affect on someone's life or not. You make mistakes no matter what you're affiliated with. I'm just really sure that the things to aim for in life are positive. Sure there are thousands of other examples of what we should or shouldn't do, but ~love~ and patience and empathy have gotta be up near the top, yeah? :scared: There aren't any short holy books that I know of, but hey even when b77 had a charter we still tried to abide by a few basics, right? There aren't many rules to Fight Club but people still know the first two because there's such a focus on them.

I just find it easy to disregard hateful rants "in God's name" because he wouldn't want there to be hate at all, let alone in his name. If he doesn't exist, no harm no foul. If he does and I still deserve hell, that's between me and him, not twats like Steven Anderson.

I'm sorry to leave out other religions, I just know even less about them than my own. What I do know is that I haven't met anyone who embodies hate like a lot of people who make headlines do. Not whether they were muslim, jewish, or mormon. So I don't think of them as in the same ballpark at all. If you're praying for someone to go to hell, you're wrong. Not your followers, not your hometown, not the rest of your nationality or race, just you. I can complicate a lot of things in my life, but that one seems pretty clear.

When it comes to believability, that's for everyone to figure out themselves. The three things that have helped my life in recent years are: pills, counselors, and a closer relationship with God. Only one of those things I can really hold in my palm and see and taste, but does that make it the most helpful? Cuz I like my counselors. I like praying and going to church, too. I like my body chemistry feeling a little more balanced. Some people don't believe in medication, therapy, or religion, but obviously each has varying degrees of tangibility or apparent effectiveness of results. In the end, I guess you just have to believe that something is improving a person's life, and as long as it's not shitting all over yours, that should be okay.




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nienna
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 6:38 am
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Quote:
L_M wrote:
I’m not aware of any point at which the OT identifies God as being loving, and the NT is from memory fairly quiet on the subject as well (I’m not even sure if God is ever described as being loving anywhere in the Synoptic Gospels).
1 John 4:8 (New International Version)
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Quote:
the God of the OT is very clearly the God of the New as well – virtually the same amount of love, same amount of things that dismay him as well, and that the grace that is offered in the New Testament and beyond, is available in the Old as well...

The Old Testament speaks plenty about God’s love – Deuteronomy 7:7-13 speaks of His love for the nation of Israel; Isaiah 63:9 speaks of God saving people due to His love for them. On many occasions through the Old Testament the mercy of God is praised (Psalm 57:3; 59:10; 62:12; 86:13; 100:5; 106:1, etc.). Sure, judgment is emphasized, but that is as it often is in any legal document – which the Old Testament primarily is – a legal and historical document for the Nation of Israel which gives us a backdrop to the coming of Jesus.

Also, a cursory non-academic scanning of the Old Testament reveals 446 mentions of God’s ‘love’ and 100 occurrences of ‘mercy’ as opposed to 135 mentions of ‘hate’ and 173 of ‘wrath’


http://respondingtoskeptics.wordpress.c ... ament-god/

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 9:16 am
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Lord_Morningstar, I don't agree with your interpretation of Matthew 15:1-6. :)

Here is the passage in Today's New International Version:

1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is 'devoted to God,' 6 they are not to 'honor their father or mother' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.


The context of the passage (and context is everything) is that the Pharisees were nitpicking at Jesus about his apparently liberal interpretation of the Mosiac Law, i.e. he was fine with his disciples breaking ancient cleanliness taboos. Jesus retorted by basically telling them to get their house in order: you conveniently ignore the Mosaic commandment to honour one's parents, he was saying, by saying that money that could be used to help one's parents be devoted to God, i.e. they were putting a super-spiritual spin on what was just plain selfishness.

To select verse 4 and try to prove that Jesus was some kind of bloodthirsty git by endorsing the killing of disobedient children (which he most certainly was not) seems to me to be the sort of thing that, for example, Fundamentalists do: they are very adept at picking random texts from the Bible and justifying bad theology as a result. A very good example of this is the justification of racial apartheid, which is based on an extremely inventive (i.e. crackpot) interpretation of one somewhat obscure verse in Genesis.

A text without a context becomes a pretext. ;)

As for 'God is love', one of my favourite OT verses is from Psalm 103 verse 8:

8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.


In the New Testament, 1 John 4 is one of the primary texts:

"7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. ... 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us ....

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If we say we love God yet hate a brother or sister, we are liars. For if we do not love a fellow believer, whom we have seen, we cannot love God, whom we have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Those who love God must also love one another."


I could go on, but that is enough apologetics. ;)

Quote:
It was only the rise of liberal secular values in the Enlightenment that made liberal Christianity mainstream, and I can’t help but ask, if Christianity by default is a religion of love and tolerance, why it didn’t manifest itself as such sooner.


I can only reply that the hardness of the human heart has got seriously in the way. There is plenty about God's love in the Bible if people care to look for it. Jesus told his disciples to love one another and the apostles told us to show love and care to all. The message could not be plainer. When Christians disobey this simple command, they disgrace the faith they proclaim.

And I am not at all surprised that people refuse to take us seriously if we refuse to take the message of Jesus seriously. :neutral:

Last edited by Di of Long Cleeve on Fri 04 Sep , 2009 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 9:22 am
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Totally agree with Di...only she says it all so much better than I can.*

But then, I'm a Quaker by practice (although a Presbyterian by upbringing) and some people think Quakers are far beyond the fringe anyway! :D

*Which is why she should be a Vicar, IMHO. ;)


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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 9:24 am
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jewelsong wrote:
*Which is why she should be a Vicar, IMHO. ;)
Yeah, all right. :D

:blackeye:

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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 9:47 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Di of Long Cleeve wrote:
A text without a context becomes a pretext. ;)

As for 'God is love', one of my favourite OT verses is from Psalm 103 verse 8:

8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
The rest of the OT shows he most certainly was not. He may have 'loved' the Israelites, but was a mass murderer to anyone else whether they be men, women and children, and even then did some very unloving and uncompassionate things to some Israelites.

Of course, the OT has been written to favour the Israelites, going on many killing sprees 'in God's name'. Why this is deemed a holy book I will never understand. The whole OT is a justification, and to giving weight to human laws by saying they are from a god.

Well it worked for rulers down the centuries.

Not so much now.

*E*, if there is a god, I wouldn't look for it in the bible or at a church - both are incredibly poor approximations if they were indeed initially inspired by the real thing. As a 12 year old when I realised what the bible was, I used to think I could find a god by closing my eyes, opening my heart and mind, and reaching out, scanning the frequencies. Very SciFi-inspired approach of course. But it does work for some.

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 10:08 am
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Lidless wrote:
I used to think I could find a god by closing my eyes, opening my heart and mind, and reaching out, scanning the frequencies. Very SciFi-inspired approach of course. But it does work for some.
Sounds very much like what happens at a Quaker Meeting. Although I don't think either George Fox or William Penn would have recognized the term "SciFi!" :D


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 3:22 pm
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John is not a synoptic gospel.


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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 3:38 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
John is not a synoptic gospel.
I know. :)

The John passage I quoted is not a gospel either: it's from the first letter of John.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Fri 04 Sep , 2009 7:01 pm
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The Enlightenment followed the Reformation. The Reformation was, in essence, a revolt against the power of the Catholic Church.

Religions, being human institutions, tend to get organized and hierarchical. Some more than others, but in general they all have at least some sort of priestly/teacherly character the lay people turn to for comfort and the leaders turn to for validation. A couple things happened to Christianity to make it what it is today. First, it was decided very, very early on in the history of the religion that it was a god thing to actively seek and accept converts. Second, and I realize I'm over-simplifying almost to the verge of nonsense, but bear with me, Christianity won the interest and thus endorsement of some powerful Romans, who, after much squabbling and martyring, took the "if you can't beat them join them" approach. This is important, because when Rome fell, the church was left behind to step into the power void. On both sides of the Great Schism. I can't speak much of what happened in the east, with the Orthodox Church, though it is and long has been a powerful institution in its own right, but in the west, the Catholic Church essentially shepherded Europe through the Dark Ages. Civilization didn't advance. In fact, it regressed. But it survived. And as it survived, and as the peoples of the fallen Roman empire reorganized and re-sorted, the Church consolidated power. Kings ruled because the Pope allowed them to. People organized their lives around Church doctrines. Sects and orders of knights (the Cathars, the Templars) were wiped out at the Church's command. When life sucked, people turned to scape-goating minority populations, like the Jews, because the Church said it was okay (because you don't want to admit that it was the policies of the Church and the feudal lords they back that made life so suckful for the general populace).

Powerful institutions like to hold on to their power. They stomp on all threats, real and perceived. And for a long time, the Catholic Church saw certain philosophical advances as a threat. This is why Galileo got in trouble. But time marches. Things change. Returning Crusaders brought things they'd learned from their contact with the civilization of the Near East. The Black Death brought both ruin and social change. Eventually, men like Marco Polo began to dare the sea again. The Church's power began to erode. Finally, it eroded to the point where a man called Martin Luther felt angry and empowered enough to nail his indictment of the Catholic Church to the church's own doors. Around the same time, give or take a few decades, the King of England also gave the Pope the finger by setting himself up as the head of the Church in England so he could divorce and re-marry as he chose. These events caused all hell to break loose upon western Europe. Protestantism rose out of bloodshed. Church and state were so entwined that to break from the Catholic Church was treason and, as whole states broke from Rome, not falling into line with whatever flavor of Protestantism your ruler subscribed to was also treason.

Eventually, people figured out how to separate church and state and thus allow multiple religions to exist within the same national boundary, without treason charges or other nonsense get involved. But it was a long journey. We're not done yet. And there's something about religion that tends to appeal to people's baser instincts and that makes it easy fuel for the fires of power-hungry demagogues. I'm not sure what it is; probably because faith itself is inherently irrational and so, once you've invoked faith, you've already chipped away at the rationality a discussion is likely to have (as can be seen from both camps in this thread).

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 3:00 am
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I thought we were talking about religions, in general. I don't see the relevance of your post to the discussion by pointing out the mistakes of the Roman Catholic Church. How about the Jewish faith, the Muslim faith?

Why is that when we talk about religion it's so easy to point our finger towards the Roman Catholic Church.

E!
You go girl!!! I associate my faith with positive thinking, whatever trials I face today or in the future I know that I will be able overcome it or as we say in my religion "thy will be done".

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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 4:52 am
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Lurker wrote:
I thought we were talking about religions, in general. I don't see the relevance of your post to the discussion by pointing out the mistakes of the Roman Catholic Church. How about the Jewish faith, the Muslim faith?

Why is that when we talk about religion it's so easy to point our finger towards the Roman Catholic Church.
I think River discussed the Catholic Church specifically because Western society was so vitally shaped by the influence of the Catholic Church--not of the Jewish faith or of Islam. This is a discussion on the failings and benefits of religion, if I'm reading correctly, and because of the enormous power that the Church had over Western civilization for so many hundreds of years, the failings of the Church have impacted those of us in the West to a huge degree. It's impossible to discuss the formation of religion today, in the West, without discussing the mistakes of the Catholic Church.

As to why it's so easy to "point the finger" at the Catholic Church, I don't think you can possibly deny the corruptness and greed of the Church during the Middle Ages, and even for a time after that. Today, the Church focuses heavily on doing charity and good works, and you certainly won't hear me deny that--I received an excellent and well-rounded education from a Jesuit university. But that is really a more recent development, and for hundreds of years the Catholic Church did people great wrong. I think the power of the Church really served to stagnate the progression of Western civilization by centuries.


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Lurker
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 3:28 pm
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Yes, it's so easy to point the finger at the Roman Catholic Church as the root of all religious evil because it's also so easy for a lot of people (not just Muslims) to point the finger on the USA for what is wrong in the world because of it's enormous power as well.

I'm not some so called "Christians" here who would say that I'm ashamed to be called "Christian" because of some people who use the pulpit to preach hate. Heck, Christianity is not brand or a label, it's more than that. People are not stupid, they know that not all Christians are like that. It's like people who say I am American and yet when they go hopping around Europe they use a backpack with a Canadian flag on it. Why are you ashamed? Heck, let those people know that not all Americans are imperialists.

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 4:03 pm
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It's easy to point the finger at the Roman Catholic church as the root of some religious evil because they are responsible for a great deal of evil. I don't believe anyone has claimed that they're responsible for all religious evil. It would be silly to claim such a thing. It would also be silly to claim that someone else has claimed such a thing if nobody has done so.

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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sat 05 Sep , 2009 4:28 pm
Kill the headlights and put it in neutral
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Posts: 5407
Joined: Tue 09 Aug , 2005 2:27 am
 
Lurker, I really don't understand how you could have taken from the last few posts that anyone is claiming that the Church is at the root of all the world's problems. I never said that, nor do I think that's the case. However, I do think the Church has done a great deal of harm, and I explained that. Please don't be so defensive--I know you are Catholic, but I am talking about the Church's history, not the present.

As for the wrongdoings of the US, I agree that they are significant. But I also think that most Americans will gladly stand up for the good that the US has done as well, and I think it's more of a joke that anyone tells Europeans that they are Canadian when traveling. I certainly told people that I was American when I traveled to Europe, and I was greeted quite warmly as such. I think the problem is the opposite of what you have said--there are too many Americans who are far too willing to defend some of our nation's atrocious behavior.


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