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Minister- Obama should die and go to hell

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 3:20 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
I had one Catholic friend tell me that anyone who wasn't Catholic was going to hell...even Protestants. This was in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas.
I have another friend (who isn't Catholic, but some kind of Fundamentalist) who repeatedly tells me how few people are going to get into heaven - and he has some scripture to back it up.

All I can think of when people say things like this is that "Damn, Heaven is going to be one BORING place, isn't it?"

What I did say to my Fundie friend was that if he was somehow right, that meant that most of my friends and family weren't going to get in, and so why on earth would I want to be there without them?

I don't understand the narrow-mindedness in this kind of thinking. Isn't God infinite? Beyond time and space? I do think it is a need/desire to have things nice and neatly understood and under control. If you do or believe X, Y and Z...then you're IN! No worries!


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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Sun 06 Sep , 2009 7:21 pm
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I've been told I'm going to hell. I've also been told to go to hell. But, since I believe in neither heaven nor hell, these things have little meaning to me.
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Riverthalos wrote:
And now I need to run because my husband is yelling at me.
In which direction?
That time? Towards/with him. We needed to walk our niece home...so her mother could feed us cake and she (the niece) could get permission to stay over with us at her grandparents'/S's parents'/my in-laws' place.

Other times though, I run away. Or walk away. Or I yell back with sufficient force to send him away. =:)

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 1:32 pm
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Quote:
As recently as 50 years ago (and maybe still!) children in Catholic Schools (in the US at least!) were taught that non-Catholics were destined for hell. Not non-Christians, mind...non-Catholics.
At the same time, a subset of the Protestant schools were teaching that the Pope is the antichrist (and at least one of them was still doing it when I was in school).


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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 2:16 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
At the same time, a subset of the Protestant schools were teaching that the Pope is the antichrist (and at least one of them was still doing it when I was in school).
I knew there were some Protestant denominations that taught this...but what schools?


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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 3:13 pm
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Lurker wrote:
Why don't somebody discusss the atrocities of other religion as well, man, why just cite one. C'mon!!!
viewtopic.php?p=357701#p357701
I did, obliquely, in this post on this thread. Pay attention! :P

The thing that bugs me about religious services I’ve been to is the fact that what they are doing is obviously an attempt to practice magic. :nono: What’s up with that? Condemn magic in all formats, but then try to do it yourself? That’s just wrong.

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 3:53 pm
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MariaHobbit wrote:
The thing that bugs me about religious services I’ve been to is the fact that what they are doing is obviously an attempt to practice magic. :nono: What’s up with that? Condemn magic in all formats, but then try to do it yourself? That’s just wrong.
Er ... what kind of religious services have you been to, Maria? :scratch:

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 3:57 pm
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Ones where they pray?

jewel--it was a Baptist school. I can't remember for certain whether it was taught as a fact or if it was just a comment a teacher made.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 4:22 pm
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What denomination was trying to practice magic, and what do you mean by magic? I'm curious because I used to have to go to church, both rcc, and lutheran, and I don't recall magic, unless by magic you mean boredom.

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 5:31 pm
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Perhaps she means something related to the Eucharist. ???

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 5:55 pm
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What about plain old prayer? No one calls it magic, of course, but at the end of the day you're asking a supernatural being to intervene in the natural world in order to achieve some desired outcome.


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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 6:01 pm
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Only Maria can answer definitively what she was referring to.

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 6:47 pm
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dictionary.com wrote:
mag⋅ic  /ˈmædʒɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [maj-ik] –noun
1. the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic.
2. the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.
The second definition in the dictionary, obviously. :P When one is attempting to affect the physical world by nonphysical means, then one is trying to use magic. Prayer, blessings, baptisms, healings.... all those are attempting to get the diety to change reality in one's own favor. The only difference between that and the psionics I've been reading about is that religions are spectacularly ineffective in their application of the energies involved. Between various weddings and funerals I've attended (9 or 10) , only once have I felt that the priest or preacher (or whatever they are called in that particular flavor of Christianity) actually raise some energy. I couldn't tell what exactly they did with it, but the hairs on my neck sure stood up!

I'm sure that incident was due to the talent of the particular minister (?) involved, however, not the brand of religion it was.

I think most folks are getting short changed, if the purpose of a preacher is to intercede for people with the All Mighty. There ought to be tests and standards and punishments for false advertising. If one is blessing some food or a baby or a freshly planted field and their words have no effect whatsoever, then people should know it! The people with real talent in that area should be recognized and rewarded.

Yes, I don't have a religion, don't believe in a particular god, but I do believe in magic. Or at least psionics. People can affect reality with their will and intentions, some more so than others.

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 7:23 pm
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MariaHobbit wrote:
I think most folks are getting short changed, if the purpose of a preacher is to intercede for people with the All Mighty.
My vicar doesn't intercede for me, although I am sure he prays for me in his own private prayers. ;) But he doesn't act as a bridge between me and God. Nobody can do that for me. I have my own relationship with God.
Quote:
There ought to be tests and standards and punishments for false advertising. If one is blessing some food or a baby or a freshly planted field and their words have no effect whatsoever, then people should know it! The people with real talent in that area should be recognized and rewarded.
Tests and standards and punishments? :Q Sheesh, and New Age people think that Christianity is legalistic. :blackeye:

I'm jesting. ;)

I'm not wanting to cause offence but this seems a very mechanistic understanding of what Christians (or others) actually believe prayer to be: a relationship with God. There are no 'tests' that anyone has to pass through. :scratch:

I do know people who claim to have been healed by the power of prayer ... but that is a whole other subject, maybe (and not uncontroversial). I think it is true to say that Christians would claim the power of the Holy Spirit was greater than any magic. I also think that many Christians would say that spirituality is a wider, bigger, deeper area than 'mere' magic.
Quote:
People can affect reality with their will and intentions, some more so than others.
I don't know much about that. I do know that prayer makes a big difference to me: to my behaviour, how I treat other people, any inner sense of peace or strength, my sense of God's closeness and his love. To name just a few things. If I don't pray, I don't feel close to God and my behaviour can slip as a result. To name just one tiny thing which is part of the whole.

I don't regard any of this as 'magic' and I don't believe in incantations. ;)

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 7:31 pm
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What I am understanding is what Maria is describing is what Christians and others would be described as a spiritual feeling, a soul moving feeling. I am not so sure that psionics and being moved by the spirit aren't the same thing.

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 8:14 pm
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I have relatives who think it is very important to bless the food before each meal. They say a particular string of words and expect that saying those words will cause the food to be blessed by God, even though they are saying them by rote.

I have dabbled in several al formats of energy healing and have found that the effect diminishes each time I visualize the process the same way. Doing such a thing by rote means you put less and less of your *self* into the process and it becomes less effective each time.

I've read one book of the bible (that's all I took time for) and in it Jesus specifically said not to pray the same way each time: " 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. " And yet, my relatives use the same vain repetitions of the food prayer every single time we've eaten with them. It's useless that way. If you really want to accomplish something with energy you have to put your whole attention to your thoughts and visualization. It's near impossible if you are doing something by rote, since by rote means you are doing it automatically. Not paying much attention to it.

I respect the fact that Jesus seems to have been a phenomenally skilled energy worker. I actually liked what I read about him in the book of Matthew. But I despise how his teachings have been twisted and misunderstood over the millenia. I completely understand how he rails against his disciples for not understanding how to do energy healing, but I also understand that not everyone has a knack for that kind of thing.

I can heal myself and help my husband heal himself with some ailments. Most people can probably do the little I can do. If Jesus could do half of what he's reputed to do, that's very cool. But.... it's also magic! At least until science catches up and tells us how it's done.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 9:10 pm
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It's only magic or sorcery or the occult if it's not Christianity, Maria. And a particular branch, at that. ;)

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 9:25 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
Quote:
As recently as 50 years ago (and maybe still!) children in Catholic Schools (in the US at least!) were taught that non-Catholics were destined for hell. Not non-Christians, mind...non-Catholics.
At the same time, a subset of the Protestant schools were teaching that the Pope is the antichrist (and at least one of them was still doing it when I was in school).
My family's denomination, Seventh-Day Adventists, very explicitly believe this.


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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Tue 08 Sep , 2009 10:35 pm
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MariaHobbit wrote:
I've read one book of the bible (that's all I took time for) and in it Jesus specifically said not to pray the same way each time: " 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. " And yet, my relatives use the same vain repetitions of the food prayer every single time we've eaten with them. It's useless that way. If you really want to accomplish something with energy you have to put your whole attention to your thoughts and visualization. It's near impossible if you are doing something by rote, since by rote means you are doing it automatically. Not paying much attention to it.
When someone says grace over a meal, they're not wanting to 'accomplish something with energy'. All they are really doing is thanking God for the food. ;)

Any prayer which becomes mere habit needs to be ditched, I would humbly suggest.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Thu 10 Sep , 2009 4:59 pm
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Apparently Joe Wilson thinks Obama is going to hell and let the entire world know it with is outburst last night.

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The Watcher
Post subject: Re: Minister- Obama should die and go to hell
Posted: Thu 10 Sep , 2009 11:59 pm
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I am going to humbly suggest that people have faith in whatever because it makes them feel more secure, in control, or at one with a universe which otherwise seems quite cold and uncaring about any given individual.

I for one do not believe any single one of us is more special or granted a certain place in a more than likely non existent afterlife based on our "correct" beliefs.

We all become worm food in the end, and I do believe we have a connection to the earth in regards to exactly that, and whether there is some greater cosmological force at work that involves our awareness, soul, or whatever one wishes to call it, I doubt very highly that it has ANYTHING to do with how fervent one's beliefs are, or which set of manmade created doctrines it comes from.

In terms of magic, I for one do not subscribe to it. I do believe that the human mind is much more powerful than it is given credit for.

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