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President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize

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vison
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 4:39 pm
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Lalaith, I think that, yes, some people around the world "hate" the US for a variety of reasons. But you know what I think the commonest feeling was? Disappointment, or disillusionment, or something like that. People thought, an awful lot of people thought, that the USA had given up being the country everyone admired. Now, I know the USA did a lot of dreadful things here and there, every great nation does dreadful things. But for most people around the world, America really was a beacon of freedom and liberty and those wonderful things and then . . . . it changed. I think that was the feeling, more than hatred.

Mr. Obama seems to have tapped into the desire of many, many people to think well of America as we used to. Uncle Sam seemed to have turned into the Bad Uncle there for awhile. The one who gets drunk and starts fights at the family picnic, that sort of uncle.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 4:39 pm
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Quote:
Also, you're arguing in the style of Glenn Beck - "I'm not saying he didn't do anything, but prove to me that he did."
It's a bullshit tactic. Have a little class in your debating style please.
So what's wrong with proving it?
It's not a tactic, people want a proof in almost anything these days.
Is there a God? proof. Is he guilty? proof. Is this guy the best handy man? proof.

Thanks for the compliment, Glenn Beck is too extreme compared to me, maybe I can be an O'Reilly instead. :)

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 4:55 pm
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Thank you for those words, vison. It really makes a lot of sense and helps me understand the perspective of others better.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 6:19 pm
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Glenn Beck to first-ever Muslim congressman wrote:
"I have been nervous about this interview with you, because what I feel like saying is, 'Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies.' I'm not accusing you of being an enemy, but that's the way I feel, and I think a lot of Americans will feel that way."
Clearly Glenn Beck deserved the Nobel Peace Prize. Good lord....


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 6:50 pm
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This is like "prove to me that you are not _________________________________ " insert any horrible thing there from beating your spouse to molesting children to committing violent murders.

" And I am suppose to prove this negative ... just how again Mr. Beck?"

Notice how Beck uses this angle over and over again to say the most revolting things that are beyond need for facts or evidence. "Of course I am not accusing you of anything, and I do not even agree with it, BUT, this is how some Americans feel." The man is disgusting.

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Nienor SharkAttack
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 6:59 pm
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Estel wrote:
He has, however, done quite a bit since he's been in office. It's probably not covered very well in the U.S., however, the speech he gave in Cairo went a long way towards a more friendly attitude towards the U.S. from the Middle East, as well as his willingness to talk rather than threaten. Most Europeans I've spoken to have a much softer attitude towards the U.S. with him in office, and have more respect for us as a country for voting him in. We're not so much seen as a bunch of blithering bullies. That's two things that are rather huge. Add in bringing healthcare to the forefront, the various meetings with world rulers, giving more credence to the UN, and, indeed, actively participating with the UN. How about only taking 1 week off for a vacation, as opposed to Bush who took the entire month of August off in his first year.

Diplomacy is a long and quiet process where it looks like not much is going on until it's done. Think of it as filling a huge pool with water from a single hose. Obama is a diplomat.

No, he should not have won. Saying that he has not done anything, however, is just showing your own ignorance.
Estel mentioned many important things Obama has done. (I’d also like to mention climate change and nuclear disarmament.) I’m a little surprised that we come down on different conclusions. ;)

The most important thing for me is the diplomacy and UN and international political climate thing. It’s something you can’t measure in numbers or see with your own two eyes, but it’s so important. And I am convinced that Obama’s achievements on that point have contributed to world peace, present and future, even if you can’t point at a specific conflict and say that “Obama solved it!” And therefore, I do not think it was wrong to give him the Peace Prize.

I also think it’s an insult to Obama to say that the only thing he’s done is not being Bush. He has made a choice and chosen a course. He could have chosen differently.

LalaithUrwen wrote:
I agree with this assessment [an observation Cerin made on HoF]. What bothers me, and this could be complete naivete on my part, is that I didn't think the NPP was politically-based in this way. So, for me, it somewhat diminishes the credibility and prestige of the award. But, then again, I am probably just glorifying something that has been politically-driven from the beginning.

I mean, obviously, I know politics are involved. You can't be a peacemaker on this level without it involving countries, social issues, and the like. But giving the award to Obama at this stage in the game seems to imply that the committee cares more about their own ideologies or political agendas than acknowledging or rewarding someone who has actually accomplished a great deal toward peacemaking.
Some has said that “this was controversial, let’s stop giving out the NPP”. I’d say that when the NPP stops being controversial, it’s time to question its worth. A harmless NPP is a bad NPP. We need a political NPP. Take examples like Willy Brandt, Lech Walesa and Mikhail Gorbatsjov: those were controversial decisions at the time. But proved to be good decisions, and the NPPs awarded contributed to important political processes that made the world a better place. That, for me, is the greatest value of the NPP, if it can actually do some good in the world.

It’s a risk, yes. It’s daring. But that, in my opinion, is the kind of NPP we need.

Anyway, if the Committee thinks that Obama’s political agenda is contributing to world peace, how can it be wrong of them to judge according to that? There will always be people who disagree. Would you have protested and called it a political decision (and therefore bad) if the NPP had been given out to for example one of the Chinese human rights activists? I know the Chinese government wouldn’t have been happy…

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 8:43 pm
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Quote:
Estel mentioned many important things Obama has done. (I’d also like to mention climate change and nuclear disarmament.) I’m a little surprised that we come down on different conclusions.
Nuclear disarmament? Climate Change? Really now....based on his speech....again. It is easy to make "feel good" speeches but very difficult to implement.

The problem with basing a person's accomplishment for something we are speculating he is bound to do in the future is a mistake. We don't know if he will make do of his promise, or may make mistakes along the way or do something stupid. I don't buy it at all, it's like giving a lifetime achievement award to somebody whose achievement is yet to be seen.

Estel,
I'm not the ignorant one, maybe you are, who knows, since you believe everything that a politician says without giving me specifics like say a "peace treaty signed" or did he negotiate for the release of hostages, etc.... Even the recipient was surprised that he got the award and here you are defending him as if he actually did something. :)

Last edited by Lurker on Sat 10 Oct , 2009 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nienor SharkAttack
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 9:05 pm
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Lurker wrote:
Estel,
I'm not the ignorant one, since you believe everything that a politician says without giving me specifics like say a "peace treaty signed" or did he negotiate for the release of hostages, etc....
Nienor SharkAttack wrote:
The most important thing for me is the diplomacy and UN and international political climate thing. It’s something you can’t measure in numbers or see with your own two eyes, but it’s so important. And I am convinced that Obama’s achievements on that point have contributed to world peace, present and future, even if you can’t point at a specific conflict and say that “Obama solved it!” And therefore, I do not think it was wrong to give him the Peace Prize.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 9:18 pm
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Those are not specifics, you are not answering my question. Barking dogs seldom bites, you know.

After he spoke in the UN did Iran, North Korea, India, Pakistan, Russia say okay Mr. US President we will stop the arms race right now. Here's our pledge, signed, sealed, delivered. Or the industrial nations say Okay Mr. US President we will cut our emissions right now. No! They are just feel good speeches that are yet to be seen. In fact, if he really is for climate change then why did he use Air Force 1 and 2 to fly him and his friends to bid for the Olympics. They could just flew over with one plane. Lead by example not talk...talk....talk...talk.

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Nienor SharkAttack
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 9:31 pm
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I am answering your question, but you don't like the answer because there are no "specifics" the way you want them to be.

I quote Jagland: "Obama has reduced the temperature in the world." That does not mean that all conflicts magically disappear. But they will be easier to solve. There will be less chance that they escalate. And fewer new conflicts will arise. In a world where the international political climate is very confrontational, the UN is weak, diplomacy and dialogue and multilateral apporaches are badly off, and talking is discredited, conflicts will thrive. I really do think Obama has made all of this better. And so does the NPP Committee. It might not be "specific" enough for you. But I think it's very important for world peace.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sat 10 Oct , 2009 9:55 pm
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That's why I am awarding the committee the "Physics" award for quantum leaping into the future.
The future is bright I think they need shades.
They are basing an award on something yet to be seen and somebody's "supposed" to be charismatic personality. :LMAO:

Wow, I want to get one of those crystal balls they are using, maybe I'll see if the Leafs are going to win the Stanley Cup this year.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 12:27 pm
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Lurker - you show ignorance by thinking that diplomacy, i.e., talking, giving speeches, negotiating, is something that can be accomplished overnight, or even in 8 months. Diplomacy is something that takes place over the course of years, and has no end. It's like a marriage. The act of the wedding ceremony is not the final result. It is something that has to have ongoing communication, and the moment you stop is the moment the partnership begins to fail. Obama is in the courting stage now. No engagement has been announced, no marriage is planned, and he certainly hasn't got, Iran, for instance, into bed yet. Just because those things haven't happened, however, does not mean that nothing has happened.

The world doesn't work in a "signed, sealed, delivered" way, especially when it comes to relations between nations. Critiquing anyone, be they president, politician, wife or friend for not behaving as if it does is pointless and beyond naive.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the nobel prize. I'm disagreeing with you that you think that what Obama has done so far is nothing. What you're saying is basically the equivalent of saying that he might as well have been on vacation since the moment he took office for all he has done. I'm not trying to be insulting, unlike you, it seems, but it is not just ignorant to believe that. It is willful ignorance. It is being blind, not because you were born that way, but because you have chosen to put the blinders on and to stick your fingers in your ears, saying nanananananaIcan'thearyounananana. By doing that, not only the reality of the world is shut out, but the chance to influence that reality is as well. You do yourself a disservice.

I'm not saying you have to agree with me. Simply moderate your views in accordance with reality. Obama has done work whilst he's been in office. Maybe less than what I think, but certainly more than what you're willing to admit. Until you are willing to acknowledge that, you're not going to find anyone willing to take you seriously other than those others who have also chosen to be blind and deaf.

Frankly, as you have chosen not only to act that way, but mock those who have chosen differently, I see no more reason to debate with you than I would choose to debate with a toddler.

Never proving a point but instead telling others they have to prove theirs and saying that you must be right if they don't on top of mocking and derision only make you a bully, not a debater.


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Lurker
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 2:10 pm
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Hey, it's like the pot calling the kettle black, you mocked me first, remember by calling me ignorant. Did I call you names, Estel...hmmm. Wow, I bet the rangers are on your side again. :P

Whose the spin doctor now? You positioned yourself as the victim, yet you're the first who threw the first stone.

You should open your blinders as well, you think Obama is all high mighty and everything he does is the best.

Obama could use some management skills, you combine talking and action....not talking all the time. I could boost the morale of my employees by talking but without concrete action like improving the lives of my workers I am nothing but hype. That's why I always warn lady friends about guys who drip syrup from their lips they are the ones who they should avoid. Barking dogs never bite, I always say.

You should start learning how to debate. You do not, I repeat, do not, attack a personality just because you don't like what the other person has said. Calling a person ignorant just because you he/she doesn't see things the way you do. Telling him/her it's like talking to a toddler is way, way, out of line. I never called you any of those cause I have class.

All I was asking was concrete proof, not something the mainstream media has been spinning. Then you start commenting on my personality. Why you don't have any ammunitions to throw anymore?

After the talk, there should be action.
-Hilary Clinton

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 6:44 pm
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It has occurred to me that the peace prize is often handed out more for effort than success. Apartheid still existed in South Africa when Desmond Tutu won his prize. Woodrow Wilson, a laureate who waged war, won his for his efforts regarding the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nations. Remember how WWI was supposed to be the war to end all wars? Remember how splendidly those efforts of Wilson's turned out? How about everyone who's won a prize for work done in the Mideast? And some of the winners are simply fighting a battle that will never be won, doing work that will never be finished. Medecins sans Frontiers is an example of this. Trying to achieve world peace and social justice is like trying to hold back a glacier. It's probably impossible. The victories tend to be small, the efforts herculean. And the goal itself seems forever out of reach.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 7:41 pm
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I agree with you on those River. Compared to those people, Obama just started his campaign for say "world peace, climate change etc..." for a few weeks. Let's give him a little leeway, a few months then. The others like Desmond Tutu started their campaign years before they were handed the award. Yes, I know the efforts are herculean, but you have to "sweat it out" before I would consider giving you the award, IMHO.

My finance prof would often say, I am not out to get you! It's just that before I could give you a passing mark in this class show me that you really made an effort to understand the lesson and you have tried but failed, thus, I might consider giving you that passing mark for effort.

His award without earning it sets a bad precedent for other award giving bodies, IMHO. It has lost it's credibility.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 9:25 pm
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Lalaith, The Nobel is given out in many categories and politics is one of those. The Nobel is political when given out for politics. Heck, it is political even when it isn't. Harold Pinter (one of my favorite playwrights) won the Nobel in literature a couple of years ago, and conservatives here complained that he shouldn't have won it because of his anti-American stance.

Lurker, what specifics do you want? You want people here to tell you the specific reasons why the Nobel Committee awarded Obama a month after he was inaugurated? Ask the Nobel Committee. Any reason given here is pure speculation because as far as I know none of us are on the committee.

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Lurker
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 9:38 pm
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That's what I want to hear TED.
Most people here seem to think it is not mere speculation that his speeches were enough to catapult him to get the award. They are justifying that he did something when in fact...never mind. It's becoming like which came first the chicken or the egg. Don't you just love that Saturday Night Live skit. :LMAO:

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Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 9:57 pm
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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 10:09 pm
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Lurker wrote:
That's what I want to hear TED.
Most people here seem to think it is not mere speculation that his speeches were enough to catapult him to get the award. They are justifying that he did something when in fact...never mind. It's becoming like which came first the chicken or the egg. Don't you just love that Saturday Night Live skit. :LMAO:
I really don't understand your point here. People have speculated why he won the Nobel, but no one is saying, "this right here is the exact reason."

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: President Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Posted: Sun 11 Oct , 2009 10:47 pm
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Riverthalos wrote:
Jude wrote:
IWhat's he done so far that merits a prestigious prize like this? I mean, I like him and I was glad that he won, but I don't think he's earned it quite yet.
My thoughts exactly.
And me.

Based on comments from vison, the award was based on everything he's going to do.

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