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Current Events: The Death Penalty

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Thu 12 Nov , 2009 2:10 pm
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Nienor SharkAttack wrote:
I think there is a sort of contradiction in this paragraph: first you say that death is more human than a lifetime in prison, and then you say that criminals get a lifetime of greatly coveted things.
Yes, there is. It comes down to the person.
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And then we should rather focus on getting everyone else these goods, rather than complaining about inmates having them.
Indeed we should, but it may be a long time before we succeed. In the meantime, there's no reason the worst criminals should go to the front of the ration line, so to speak.
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I don’t think an organizational problem can justify killing people.
It can't, but it doesn't need to. The fact that the person committed a capital crime is sufficient justification for killing him. Keeping him alive in prison instead is (in intent, at least) an act of mercy. Commendable perhaps, but not imperative, especially when you can't afford it.
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From what I’ve read, the USA puts an unusually high percentage of their population in prison. I’d say you look into that and do something about it, rather than saying the system requires you to kill people to make it work.
Correct, but again, there's no indication that this will change any time soon.
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Also, with so many years on death row, I can’t see that capital punishment reduces overcrowding much.
I'd say the answer is to speed things up.
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Dave_LF wrote:
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So because things aren't perfect, we shouldn't even try to do what's right?
Oddly, that's my response to many of the arguments against capital punishment.
Elaborate?
Many people object arguing that since the system isn't perfect, we shouldn't allow capital punishment at all.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Thu 12 Nov , 2009 2:51 pm
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So because things aren't perfect, we shouldn't even try to do what's right?
Depends on your idea of right. Is it right to condemn someone to a slow death or a quick one? No system is ever going to be perfect because all systems are human. I prefer being realistic over perfect.
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You can do that by keeping them in jail for the rest of their lives, you don't have to chop their heads off - to follow the guillotine line of thought here...
I certainly wouldn't tout prison as a luxurious alternative, but there is an overcrowding problem in prison in America. The guillotine line would only be reserved for the worst of the worst and only in states that allow it. I'm not ideological enough to suggest everyone should allow capital punishment--make the choice for yourself.
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I live in a country where the maximum penalty is 21 years in prison. You can be sentenced to preventive detention and be kept in prison longer than that if you are deemed to be a danger to society, and so in theory, it’s possible to sit a lifetime in prison, but in practice, everyone gets out at some point. Everyone gets a seond chance. I like this system, I think it’s more humane and makes society more humane, and appeals to better values than emotional cries for the worst possible penalties.

And then you don’t have that much of an overcrowding problem. ^^
I think it appeals to an emotional cry of its own. Is giving everyone a second chance a logical conclusion (anymore logical than executing them--which also may be just as illogical)?
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I don’t think an organizational problem can justify killing people. From what I’ve read, the USA puts an unusually high percentage of their population in prison. I’d say you look into that and do something about it, rather than saying the system requires you to kill people to make it work. Countries without capital punishment manage this.
This is certainly a larger issue in the US. There are steps we could take to reduce the prison population (I don't know if it would fix overcrowding per se) and I think that's a worthwhile argument because unfortunately here we're raising people in prisons in some case. All they know is prison. I'm not saying that the system requires killing because execution is still relatively uncommon here. There's a lot of reasons to send someone to jail: retribution, revenge, rehabilitation... which is the right one? Is there a right one? Or is it all a matter of opinion?

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vison
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Thu 12 Nov , 2009 6:00 pm
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Doesn't it bother you, doesn't it truly bother you, that the US has the largest prison population IN THE WORLD? The richest, most powerful nation that ever existed?

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Thu 12 Nov , 2009 7:45 pm
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I think it would be interesting to identify a subset of crimes that will land you in prison in any country, and then see how the incarceration rates compare. i.e. how much of our prison overcrowding is because we throw people in jail for stupid stuff, and how much is because we just plain have more crime?


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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Thu 12 Nov , 2009 7:49 pm
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Perhaps the rich and powerful aspect is the root of the problem.

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Thu 12 Nov , 2009 7:58 pm
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I agree the whole keeping up with the Jones' is probably one of the biggest reasons we have higher crime rates. All the stuff we are supposed to have, the 3,000 square foot house, the 3 cars, the nice vacations....all stuff we are supposed to have to be 'sucsessful'. Imagine coming from a poor family, without any real options to achieve the American Dream, the only way out is crime. And selling drugs and or doing drugs is the easiest way to get out, be it earning drug money or escaping via the drugs.

Now it is even worse, because those working class folks can't even afford the dream and it's becoming less and less available to everyone.

I guess the best way to look at it is this, will your grandchildren be able to afford the life their great grandparents did? Probably not, not even with a good education. So what options are available to them to get the nicer things in life.....well drug running is one way to earn a bunch of cash quickly.

And sadly this has been happening in the US for at least one generation now.

Add to that the rabid hate of other non-Christian religions..

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Nienor SharkAttack
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Thu 12 Nov , 2009 8:30 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
I think it would be interesting to identify a subset of crimes that will land you in prison in any country, and then see how the incarceration rates compare. i.e. how much of our prison overcrowding is because we throw people in jail for stupid stuff, and how much is because we just plain have more crime?
This counts as "stupid stuff" in my book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_strikes_law

Also, reading through that article, I can't help but think that you guys have insanely long prison sentences. Including for not too serious crimes. That must surely be part of the problem. I really can't see that it makes any difference to justice if people are sentenced to 50 instead of 75 years in prison (or 25 years, for that matter). But it would certainly help reducing overcrowding.


Edit: This thread reminded me of a newspaper story that upset me horribly a couple of months ago. It was about American children under the age of 18 being sentenced to lifetime in prison with no chance for release. One of them had killed her stepfather after he had repeatedly raped her. Several of them had not killed anyone, but been brought along by older friends to burglaries where someone was murdered. Just kids! Lifetime with no chance for release! It's absolute, utter craziness. Wanna reduce overcrowding in your prisons? Start by introducing some humanity into your legal system.

Last edited by Nienor SharkAttack on Fri 13 Nov , 2009 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Fri 13 Nov , 2009 5:13 am
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Dave_LF wrote:
I think it would be interesting to identify a subset of crimes that will land you in prison in any country, and then see how the incarceration rates compare. i.e. how much of our prison overcrowding is because we throw people in jail for stupid stuff, and how much is because we just plain have more crime?
My understanding is that it’s both.

There has been a push in the U.S. since the 70s to impose more and longer prison terms, which in general have done nothing to reduce crime. That trend is reversing somewhat now, but real reform will take time and political will.

It’s interesting to compare the U.S. and western countries in general with East Asian societies like Malaysia and Singapore, where extremely tough prison sentences are the norm (as well as massive fines, corporal punishment and capital punishment for a wide range of offences). They have very little crime, suggesting that cultural factors probably play a part.


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Sat 14 Nov , 2009 3:38 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Capital punishment? One of the key ways of defining a society is how it treats its criminals.

Having said that, if someone were to kill either of my children or Estel, if there was not complete remorse on his/her part I would kill them in cold blood the minute they got out of prison.

*am confused*

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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Sat 14 Nov , 2009 5:39 am
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Lidless wrote:
Capital punishment? One of the key ways of defining a society is how it treats its criminals.

Having said that, if someone were to kill either of my children or Estel, if there was not complete remorse on his/her part I would kill them in cold blood the minute they got out of prison.

*am confused*
Which is why we have to judge these things in the abstract, and leave the actual decisions to people with no personal stake in the matter.

I hear a lot of people who profess to be opposed to capital punishment say things like ‘they ought to hang that bastard’ when they hear about some really horrible crime. Hell, I do it myself. Public opinion about capital punishment rises and falls with these sorts of things – the Australian States of New South Wales and Queensland both came fairly close to re-introducing capital punishment in the 1980s after they were rocked by particularly heinous crimes. At the same time, Victoria and Western Australia both moved towards abolition when they respectively hanged a man whose guilt was later in doubt or nearly hanged one that was proven innocent. We, both collectively and individually, can’t help being emotional about these things.


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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Sat 14 Nov , 2009 6:00 am
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At the same time, Victoria and Western Australia both moved towards abolition when they respectively hanged a man whose guilt was later in doubt or nearly hanged one that was proven innocent.
The single unquestionable reason why the death penalty should be abolished everywhere immediately.


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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Sun 15 Nov , 2009 3:50 pm
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I find it strange that the political groupings who protest they don't want the government to have power over them are happy for it to have the legal power to take someone's life away in cold blood. What is a greater government power than that?
It is clear there are many despicable, cruel and callous people in the world. People whose absence few would mourn. I do not think that is the point. The point is the ethical quality of the society we construct to deal with such people. I think my own nation is a better one for abolishing capital punishment.

And as yov said, the horror of an innocent person being killed by the State doesn't bear thinking about.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Thu 19 Nov , 2009 3:19 pm
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The logical conclusion of that argument is that we should never punish anyone for anything, because they might be innocent. The standard objection to this--that execution is permanent whereas incarceration need not be--is tacitly premised on the idea that people are immortal. We're not. When all is said and done, being falsely executed steals a finite amount of time from your life, just like being falsely imprisoned.


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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Sun 22 Nov , 2009 7:03 pm
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Isn't the corollary of that argument that one might as well use capital punishment for any minor crime as it steals time from someones life in exactly the same way as imprisonment. Or that a ten year sentence for a 60 year old might just as well be substituted by the death penalty.

The difference between the two types of penalty seem fundamental to me.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Mon 23 Nov , 2009 4:36 pm
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Isn't the corollary of that argument that one might as well use capital punishment for any minor crime as it steals time from someones life in exactly the same way as imprisonment. Or that a ten year sentence for a 60 year old might just as well be substituted by the death penalty.
No. In the first case, you expect to release the person eventually. You're taking some time away from his life, but not all of it. In the second, people can certainly live to be older than 70, but even if the sentence were 30 years, there's always parole.

I think my argument might imply that anyone who's sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole might as well be executed.


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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Mon 23 Nov , 2009 9:57 pm
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Unless they turn out innocent.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Mon 23 Nov , 2009 10:33 pm
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Then the argument is that people convicted of the most heinous of crimes should be sentenced to life in prison without possibility of parole rather than death on the off-chance that they're innocent, in which case keeping them in jail for years is a lesser evil than executing them. But if you're going to take that step, I don't see what's to stop you from watering down all other types of punishments for the same reason.


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Mon 23 Nov , 2009 11:17 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Love this...

Capital punishment is our society's recognition of the sanctity of human life.
Orrin Hatch, Republican senator

Last edited by Lidless on Tue 24 Nov , 2009 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Current Events: The Death Penalty
Posted: Tue 24 Nov , 2009 5:52 am
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That's not fair, Liddy. Obviously something brainless is going to come out of the mouth of a republican...

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