board77

Ew. What a jerk. I bet he's proud of himself for delivering such a poignant message, and forgets that there's more than one message his setup is sending out.

I believed in Santa for a very long time. In fact I have to say I still do, in a way. The legend, depending on how it's told, can have fantastic positive power and that to me is very important. Honestly, deep down inside most kids know Santa isn't real. If you ask them straight out, they'll tell you they know he doesn't exist. But they should be free to keep on imagining the world as if he did exist, as if all fairies and magical creatures of our storybooks were true, and not chastised for allowing these to mix with their reality. They're kids, for heaven's sakes. If I remember anything from being a child, I can assure you I wasn't delusional. I knew what was real and what was not. But I didn't stop convincing myself the unreal was true- I believe it's called having an imagination and playing. I want to smack people who think telling kids Santa is real will damage them, somehow, as if not allowing them a pleasant fantasy will do no harm at all.

Maybe my Catholic upbringing which from a very young age forced me to reconcile Bible stories with history lessons predisposed me towards being able to fully believe in something which I know not to be true. I know that doesn't make any sense, that's the beauty of it. I also believe every word of LOTR, even though I know it's a book of fiction that came out of Tolkien's head. But it's true. It's not a lie. A lie is something not worth our time, and LOTR doesn't fit that category. Neither does Santa.

Anyone know what I mean?

A note on weekday names, because I can't resist- I always found our Polish system to be the most logical. To give a literal translation, Sunday is called Noworkday, Monday is Dayafternoworkday (sic!), Tuesday is Secondday, Wednesday is Middleday, Thursday is Fourthday, Friday is Fifthday, and Saturday we borrow from the Jews and call it Sabbath.

*agrees with most of Rodia's post*

It seems that the Anglo-Saxons adopted all the weekday names from the Romans, but with the exception of Saturday they changed the names to their local god:

Code: Select all Roman Name Old English Modern English dies Lunae Monandaeg Monday dies Martis Tiwesdaeg Tuesday dies Mercuri Wodnesdaeg Wednesday dies Jovis Thunresdaeg Thursday dies Veneris Frigedaeg Friday dies Saturni Sæterdaeg Saturday dies Solis Sunandaeg Sunday

Source: Anglo-Saxon Week

Lord_Morningstar wrote:

Saturday is the exception, and I've never been able to figure out why it should be named after a Roman God. Which Anglo-Saxon deity got shafted there?

I've read that there was actually a movement back in the day to have it named Lokisday (or maybe Logesdaeg; I'm not sure what the AS word for Loki was), but Loki was falling out of favor by then. I have no idea why they went with a Roman god instead. I've looked into it a bit from time to time, but never found an answer.

Alatar wrote:

Oh, that and the "I won't tell my children lies" holier-than-thou brigade.

How does not telling children lies make one holier-than-thou?

My mom, by the way, said almost exactly that when I asked her if there really was a Santa when I was about five years old. "I can't tell my child a lie. No, there isn't a Santa." She's an INTJ. What other answer could she give?

My jewish friend ruined santa for me.

Alatar wrote:

MariaHobbit wrote:

I find it all very sad. Oh, that and the "I won't tell my children lies" holier-than-thou brigade.

I find it ridiculous.

As far as the "I won't tell my kids lies brigade" - when my mother told me (because I asked straight out) that there was no Santa Claus, I was devastated. Not because he wasn't real, but because I couldn't believe my parents had told me something that wasn't true - that they had, in fact, lied. I still remember the sinking feeling I had...and it was almost 50 years ago.

I don't consider myself "Holier than thou" but I always told my kids that Santa was pretend - and that it was fun to pretend. He filled the stockings and gave one gift each. It was fun to imagine Santa. Adam went ahead and believed in him anyway, but Hannah never really did and Luke never bought it at all.

I don't know what an INTJ is and whether it has any bearing on what a person can and cannot say, but the difference, I think, is attitude. No offense meant to your mother as I don't know her, but I think telling a child from the earliest on that all the fairytales and myths and legends and wonderful stories that inspire childhood fantasies are no more than lies is just horrible. Like I said above, a lie is something that is undesirable and should not be entertained because whatever fruit it bears is false. So if you tell a kid 'Santa is a lie' it's like saying 'There is nothing worthwile in the Santa story, no value at all, and believing it will bring you no good.' Semantically the Santa story is a lie, as it is not true, but emotionally I really don't think it deserves being treated as such. And I don't think, again with no offense to your mom, Maria, that she was any more noble for telling you the truth than she would have been for suggesting that Santa does exist.

My parents, for the record, never said 'Santa doesn't exist.' They let me work it out for myself by saying 'maybe'. So I spent my childhood pondering Santa and concepts such as generosity, dedication, kindness...but also poverty and hardship, as it was clear all children do not always get what they ask for, not necessarily for being bad. I think this was very much worth the so-called 'lie' my parents allowed me to believe in.

Lord_Morningstar wrote:

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:

You should add Odin denounces the secularization of Wodinsday (Wednesday). It's actually kind of amazing how many days are based on Norse gods.

Well, Anglo-Saxon Gods to be specific, even though they're direct equivalents or Norse Gods. Of course, given the English language evolved from Anglo-Saxon it isn't odd that the names of the days should come from their Gods. Saturday is the exception, and I've never been able to figure out why it should be named after a Roman God. Which Anglo-Saxon deity got shafted there?

In Norwegian, we have week day names coming from Norse gods on Tuesday (tirsdag = Tyrs dag), Wednesday (onsdag = Odins dag), Thursday (torsdag = Tors dag) and Friday (fredag = Frøyas dag). Monday is moon day (mandag) and Sunday is - yeah - sun day (søndag). And Saturday is called "lørdag", coming from "laugardagen", which means "washing day", and is the day everyone washed.

I don't know how long modern Japan has had its days of the week in their present form - they have adopted many Western customs and begin for instance their New Year on the first of January rather than on the Chinese lunar New year - but for what it's worth their Sunday and Monday are also Sun day and Moon day. Then it's Fire day, Water day, Wood day, Gold day and Saturday is Earth day

My understanding is that the seven day week came from an astronomical observation - the seven “wandering stars” or celestial objects that did not seem to follow the same path through the sky as the “fixed” stars. These were, of course, the objects in our solar system that are visible to the naked eye: the sun, the moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. Sunday, Monday and Saturday quite clearly fit the celestial objects they are named after. Tuesday was named for Mars, the Roman god of war, who was called Týr in Norse mythology. Wednesday was named for Mercury, the Roman god who was associated with the Nordic god Woden. Thursday, Thor’s day was named for Jupiter, the Roman god of thunder. Friday is for Venus, known as Freyja, the Norse goddess of love.

As for the Santa-slaying Jesus display, the guy who put it up is a major fuckwad, and if I lived in his neighborhood I would have no problem sneaking onto his property at night, taking the whole display down and hauling it off to the garbage dump where it belongs. I would also have no problem telling him what a sorry-ass sad sack of shit he is. Parents can tell their own children whatever they want about Santa Claus, but for a complete stranger to intentionally ruin Christmas for other people’s kids is just about as low as you can get. Imo.

MariaHobbit wrote:

Alatar wrote:

Oh, that and the "I won't tell my children lies" holier-than-thou brigade.

How does not telling children lies make one holier-than-thou?

My mom, by the way, said almost exactly that when I asked her if there really was a Santa when I was about five years old. "I can't tell my child a lie. No, there isn't a Santa." She's an INTJ. What other answer could she give?

Telling people that "I don't tell my children lies" implies that what I am doing is telling lies to mine. Which I don't believe is true. And yeah, is bloody "holier-than-thou".

I honestly find the attitude sad. Its hard to explian why, but it's like people who say "I'd rather be deaf" when I'm offering them music. If they don't get why its special, there's no way to explain why it is. It just is. Its special. Santa is special.

Ah, Rodia... An INTJ is one of the 16 basic personality types, most typified by extreme rationality and reliance on logic. click! Think Spock. Or Lord Morningstar.

Frankly, I'm surprised she ever put up with any Santa nonsense at all and waited until I asked. She lurks on this site sometimes. Now that she's out of the hospital, maybe she'll pop in and explain herself?

I'm glad she answered as she did. I was glad to know she'd never lie to me. That single comment probably formed a cornerstone of my personal antipathy towards lying.

I can't remember what we did with our own kids as far as Santa mythology goes. I'll have to ask them. They often remember details I've forgotten completely. Whatever it was, it wasn't traumatic enough to make an impression on me, anyway.

What there's no Santa Claus????




Whose this fat SOB dressed in red on my couch watching Forgetting Sarah Marshall?

I understand your point, Alatar.

I guess Santa is like religion. The A-Santaists and the Santaists can't both be right- and thus both offend each other.

Dave_LF wrote:

Did they ruin Jesus for everyone too?

No. Some lines grade-schoolers just don't cross. Weird, when you think about it, isn't it?

I DO think Santa is special. My all-time favorite holiday movie is the original "Miracle on 34th Street" which is about a child (and her mother) coming to believe in miracles, magic and yes, Santa Claus.

My kids did not lack any of that. But I never told them that Santa was real...I couldn't. I have no issue with people who do. I just...couldn't.

They had the myth and the magic without actually hearing me tell them that there was a real, live guy.

Honestly, even when you know the truth, it's still kind of magical.

In my family, Santa still comes. Even though we're all adults. Even though we're all somewhere between agnostic and just flat out atheist. Even though most of us could even be classed as anti-religion, making Christmas itself an almost pointless holiday to be celebrating. In fact, we're silly enough about Santa that we even hang up socks for the pets.

That reminds me. I should get something special for my dad's guinea pigs and my sister's girlfriend's and my brother's kitties...and the cockatiel and parakeets.

Jude wrote:

*agrees with most of Rodia's post*

It seems that the Anglo-Saxons adopted all the weekday names from the Romans, but with the exception of Saturday they changed the names to their local god:

Code: Select all Roman Name Old English Modern English dies Lunae Monandaeg Monday dies Martis Tiwesdaeg Tuesday dies Mercuri Wodnesdaeg Wednesday dies Jovis Thunresdaeg Thursday dies Veneris Frigedaeg Friday dies Saturni Sæterdaeg Saturday dies Solis Sunandaeg Sunday

Source: Anglo-Saxon Week

The suggestion that the Anglo-Saxons copied the Romans is particularly interesting in light of Nienor’s post, as it implied the Norse copied them as well (the Anglo-Saxons and Norse named each day after the same God). I’d have considered it more likely that both the Norse and Anglo-Saxon week evolved from an old Germanic one, but the days line up too well with the Latin calendar for it to be coincidental. Unless, of course, there was actually a proto-Indo-European pantheon and week that was passed down to both cultures, although I’d be surprised if the PIEs had a concept of a week. It’s interesting, though, that Jove gets Thursday when Odin/Woden gets Wednesday, suggesting the copying wasn’t exact.

Looking at that list, I also have to wonder if there wasn’t an Anglo-Saxon deity named Saeter. However, if the Anglo-Saxons did have a ‘washing day’ type name for Saturday then I wouldn’t be surprised if they took a Roman God for it.

Tosh wrote:

I don't know how long modern Japan has had its days of the week in their present form - they have adopted many Western customs and begin for instance their New Year on the first of January rather than on the Chinese lunar New year - but for what it's worth their Sunday and Monday are also Sun day and Moon day. Then it's Fire day, Water day, Wood day, Gold day and Saturday is Earth day

I was going to bring that up as well.