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 Post subject: Jennifer Knapp Comes Out
PostPosted: Sat 17 Apr , 2010 9:00 pm 
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http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/art ... l?id=87412

Jennifer Knapp is a Contemporary Christian Music artist. Interesting article!

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The following article is located at: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/mus ... apr10.html

Home > Interviews > 2010 Christian Music Today, 2010, interviews
Jennifer Knapp Comes Out

Veteran artist returns after seven-year hiatus with a feisty new album, Letting Go, while also revealing that she's gay.
Mark Moring | posted 4/13/2010 02:02PM

Seven years ago, while at the top of her game, Jennifer Knapp announced what seemed to many a sudden decision: She was stepping away from Christian music, taking an indefinite hiatus. Rumors began to swirl—she was burned out, she needed a rest, she was upset about something, she was gay. Turns out that all the rumors were true, as Knapp reveals in this rambling, exclusive interview with Christianity Today. The one-time Grammy nominee ended her hiatus in late 2009 with a few small shows, an updated website, and an announcement that she was writing new songs. Many of those songs will be featured on Letting Go, releasing May 11, her first album since 2001's The Way I Am.

In one of her first extensive interviews since announcing her comeback, Knapp, 36, talks to CT about why she quit music in the first place, her lifestyle choice, her rekindled passion for songwriting, her faith, her new album, and more.

You announced your "hiatus" in 2003. Was that a sudden decision, or was it boiling for a while?

Jennifer Knapp: It was boiling for me. I think people thought I just fell into a hole and disappeared, but I had been trying to get out of being on the road 250 days a year. Lay It Down was a 2000 release, and The Way I Am was 2001; those records were literally back to back, and I was touring while recording The Way I Am. I was telling people "Man, I can't keep up the schedule. This is just a little bit crazy." I didn't have any space to just be a normal human being. I finally realized nobody was going to make that decision for me, so I just said, "I'm not kidding. I need a break, and it starts now."

That decision came mid-2001, but my schedule didn't allow me to stop until September 2002, when I did my last show; I basically still had about a year and a half worth of contracted concerts and other things before I could stop.

A lot of people hit burnout, but I don't think many think, I'm going to take seven years off. What were you thinking?

Knapp: At the time, I literally thought I was quitting. I needed such a break, and I needed the silence to be deafening. But in the back of my mind I thought, Maybe in a couple of years I'll come back and give this another go. It was a huge risk to say I may never do this again. It was a real heart wrenching decision.

Once you fulfilled your last obligation, was there a big sigh of relief? Or what?

Knapp: I was scared to death. You just don't leave something that everyone else says is extremely successful. Some people close to me said I was doing something wrong—that [quitting] was a denial of the gifts I had. I was like, Whoa, hold on a second. I'm just asking for a little bit of time. That was a lot to deal with. It took two or three years to get over the rollercoaster ride of emotions. One day I'd be completely angry; the next day completely heartbroken and devastated; the next raging jealous because somebody's out there doing something that I love doing and I can't do it. And some days I was in complete denial. It was almost like a psychological profile of grief. [It took a while] to let the dust settle and figure out what kind of human being was left.

There were rumors that you left music because you were gay.

Knapp: That was a straw [in my decision], but there were many straws on the camel's back at the time. I'm certainly in a same-sex relationship now, but when I suspended my work, that wasn't even really a factor. I had some difficult decisions to make and what that meant for my life and deciding to invest in a same-sex relationship, but it would be completely unfair to say that's why I left music.

Were you involved in a relationship at that time you left?

Knapp: Around 2002, I was starting to contend with this new-found "issue" in my life. But I'd already decided to leave music before I knew I was going to contend with that. I don't want anyone to think that I ran out of town with my tail between my legs because I had something to hide.

Or that you were run out of town.

Knapp: Or that I was run out of town. Neither is true.

When you wrote The Way I Am, was that a veiled statement about being gay?

Knapp: That record means a lot more to me now than it did at the time. That whole record for me was an exercise in the carnal body of Christ manifested. One of the biggest decisions I was wrestling with then was, If I don't do Christian music, am I not a believer anymore?
Jennifer Knapp
Jennifer Knapp

Why come back now? What has changed?

Knapp: At some point [last year] when I started to write again, I realized that the process was rather organic. I started playing at home, and my friends are going, "Oh wow, that's pretty good. What are you going to do with that?" I said, "What do you mean, what am I going to do with it? Nothing!" The return has been a lot like the way I started music in the first place. We're doing a four-day run of concerts right now, I'm in a van, I just spent half my afternoon driving, and if I'm lucky I get dinner before I play tonight. There's something about that process you've got to love. I just think it took me a lot longer to figure out if that passion was a safe one for me.

You spent about five of the last seven years in Australia, right?

Knapp: Yes. But I've been back in the States since September. During those seven years, I entertained myself for quite some time by traveling. I traveled all through Europe. I traveled through the U.S. for about a year. I was basically a transient for about four years.

Traveling alone or with your partner?

Knapp: With my partner.

Have you been with the same partner for a long time?

Knapp: About eight years, but I don't want to get into that. For whatever reason the rumor mill [about me being gay] has persisted for so long, I wanted to acknowledge; I don't want to come off as somebody who's shirking the truth in my life. At the same time, I'm intensely private. Even if I were married to a man and had six children, it would be my personal choice to not get that kind of conversation rolling.

I understand. But I'm curious: Were you struggling with same-sex attraction when writing your first three albums? Those songs are so confessional, clearly coming from a place of a person who knows her need for grace and mercy.

Knapp: To be honest, it never occurred to me while writing those songs. I wasn't seeking out a same-sex relationship during that time.

During my college years, I received some admonishment about some relationships I'd had with women. Some people said, "You might want to renegotiate that," even though those relationships weren't sexual. Hindsight being 20/20, I guess it makes sense. But if you remove the social problem that homosexuality brings to the church—and the debate as to whether or not it should be called a "struggle," because there are proponents on both sides—you remove the notion that I am living my life with a great deal of joy. It never occurred to me that I was in something that should be labeled as a "struggle." The struggle I've had has been with the church, acknowledging me as a human being, trying to live the spiritual life that I've been called to, in whatever ramshackled, broken, frustrated way that I've always approached my faith. I still consider my hope to be a whole human being, to be a person of love and grace. So it's difficult for me to say that I've struggled within myself, because I haven't. I've struggled with other people. I've struggled with what that means in my own faith. I have struggled with how that perception of me will affect the way I feel about myself.

Are you beyond those struggles?

Knapp: I don't know. I'm the happiest I've ever been. But now that I'm back in the U.S., I'm contending with the culture shock of moving back here. There's some extremely volatile language and debate—on all sides—that just breaks my heart. Frankly, if it were up to me, I wouldn't be making any kind of public statement at all. But there are people I care about within the church community who would seek to throw me out simply because of who I've chosen to spend my life with.

So why come out of the closet, so to speak?

Knapp: I'm in no way capable of leading a charge for some kind of activist movement. I'm just a normal human being who's dealing with normal everyday life scenarios. As a Christian, I'm doing that as best as I can. The heartbreaking thing to me is that we're all hopelessly deceived if we don't think that there are people within our churches, within our communities, who want to hold on to the person they love, whatever sex that may be, and hold on to their faith. It's a hard notion. It will be a struggle for those who are in a spot that they have to choose between one or the other. The struggle I've been through—and I don't know if I will ever be fully out of it—is feeling like I have to justify my faith or the decisions that I've made to choose to love who I choose to love.

Have you ever felt like you had to choose between your faith or your gay feelings?

Knapp: Yes. Absolutely.

Because you felt they were incompatible?

Knapp: Well, everyone around me made it absolutely clear that this is not an option for me, to invest in this other person—and for me to choose to do so would be a denial of my faith.

What about what Scripture says on the topic?

Knapp: The Bible has literally saved my life. I find myself between a rock and a hard place—between the conservative evangelical who uses what most people refer to as the "clobber verses" to refer to this loving relationship as an abomination, while they're eating shellfish and wearing clothes of five different fabrics, and various other Scriptures we could argue about. I'm not capable of getting into the theological argument as to whether or not we should or shouldn't allow homosexuals within our church. There's a spirit that overrides that for me, and what I've been gravitating to in Christ and why I became a Christian in the first place.

Some argue that the feelings of homosexuality are not sinful, but only the act. What would you say?

Knapp: I'm not capable of fully debating that well. But I've always struggled as a Christian with various forms of external evidence that we are obligated to show that we are Christians. I've found no law that commands me in any way other than to love my neighbor as myself, and that love is the greatest commandment. At a certain point I find myself so handcuffed in my own faith by trying to get it right—to try and look like a Christian, to try to do the things that Christians should do, to be all of these things externally—to fake it until I get myself all handcuffed and tied up in knots as to what I was supposed to be doing there in the first place.

If God expects me, in order to be a Christian, to be able to theologically justify every move that I make, I'm sorry. I'm going to be a miserable failure.

You're living in Nashville. Are you in a church these days?

Knapp: No.

The Christian music industry can be fickle. Fans, radio, and retail were angry at Amy Grant for her divorce, at Michael English and Sandi Patty for adultery. But eventually, they were "welcomed" back. How do you think your fans and radio and Christian stores will react to the news that you're gay? Or do you care?

Knapp: I do have a soul! (laughs) I care deeply. It's a very heart-wrenching decision to come into a room knowing that there are many people who just won't come with me. The Christian bookstore thing is probably not going to happen; this isn't a Christian record, and it's not going to be marketed to Christian radio.

K-LOVE won't pick this one up?

Knapp: I doubt it, but there's no reason they can't play it. To me, my faith is fairly evident in what I'm writing, but it's not a record for the sanctuary. That in itself is a huge risk for me—to be able to write without feeling like I've got to manufacture something that's not entirely genuine, to take a song and feel like I have to make an obvious biblical reference. That's not there anymore. I've actually buried it; for me, it's an exercise in liberty. In a spiritual context, will God still be evident in me when I write songs? I sort of nervously wring my hands together and go, Please don't leave me.

You're saying Please don't leave me to God, or fans, or whom?

Knapp: To me, and the divine experience of being a musician—that private world of where I integrate that into my life and where it comes out on a public level, as a song. I have a lot of fans who live in real-life scenarios, not just live within the walls of their church. They aren't surrounded by Christians all day long; they don't just listen to Christian music. I have a lot of critically thinking fans who are trying to sort out their lives as Christians as best they know how. I think as a result of that, a lot of them have been marginalized; they're still seeking to be Christians but not always measuring up to the marketed idea of who they should be.

You're playing live shows again …

Knapp: Yes. My concerts right now include the ultra-conservative hand raisers that are going to make this bar their worship zone. And there's a guy over on the left having one too many, and there's a gay couple over on the right. That's my dream scenario. I love each and every one of them. At the end of the day, it's music.

Are you still playing your old songs in concert?

Knapp: A bit, yeah.

Which ones?

Knapp: "Martyrs and Thieves" I'll probably always play off of Kansas. "Fall Down" off of The Way I Am. The songs still have to speak to me. I had to go back and learn my old songs, but that's been part of my process too—feeling like because I was gay that I couldn't sing those songs anymore. I even said, "Don't give me a [live] set longer than what I can play with this new music, because I just can't play the old music." I just flat out said I wouldn't do it.

But you're already rethinking that?

Knapp: I'm enjoying what I'm playing now. It's been organic. Amy Courts, a gal who's joined me on this tour, said she wanted to sing some of the old songs with me. I was like, Man, I don't know. I swore I'd never play that song again. But we start playing it, and it just hits me right in my heart. It's like somebody else wrote it. I realized that it comes from a very honest, genuine place. I've started to make those connections between the old songs and what I'm doing now. It was an extraordinarily helpful connect, because for a long time I thought it was old life vs. new life. But it's not. It was a real comfort to me to realize I'm still the same person, that the baggage or new scenarios we pick up along the way are part of the long-term story.
Knapp in a recent photo shoot
Knapp in a recent photo shoot

The new record is called Letting Go. Is that a statement?

Knapp: Oh, I love record titles! (laughs) I suppose. There's a song called "Letting Go," and it's basically just a struggle to hold onto the things that have been valuable to me. That was one of the last song I wrote going into this, when I started to have a panic attack going I can't do this. People are going to chew me up and spit me out and tell me that I'm worthless. I think the process of writing that song was really helpful to realize that I really enjoy what I'm doing, and I'm not going to let go of my faith and I'm not going to let go of the passion to do music the way I want, in case there are other people telling me I can do neither because of personal decisions I've made.

In the lyrics to that song, who is the you when you sing, "Holding onto you is a menace to my soul"?

Knapp: It changes nightly. It seriously does. And it can change three or four times while I'm singing it. Some days it's my faith. Some days I'm singing to God, like You're a menace, man. It's hard to keep my faith. Sometimes it's music, and sometimes it's being on the road. It's a lot of those scenarios. That song is a bit of a chameleon, because it's all of those fearful moments that want to handicap me from not moving forward, when I'd rather move forward with grace and as much kindness as I can—and make my mistakes and hope that grace will follow me.

So it turns out to be the title of the record. I think a lot of folks around this process have been excited about what it's taken for me to get to this point—to be able to pull a trigger, to be able to go, Okay, really I want to play. A few years back, people were offering me five and six figures to come out and just do one show. I'm like, No, you cannot pay me enough. So that idea of letting go, and just the celebration that this record has felt like—finding music again, finding the passion to face up to a really challenging career but one that's extraordinarily rewarding, that when you lay your head on the pillow at the end of the night you go, Man, I'm bone tired, but that was good. For me, that's what it means.

I'm tired of spending hours and hours thinking about what if scenarios—what if nobody wants it, what if everybody is mad, what if I'm a complete disappointment. Now it's, Here it is. I've got to let it go. That's one of the frustrating parts of my Christian walk, the scenario that if I don't get it right, that I've somehow failed God and failed my faith.

There are a few songs here that I would call angry songs. Is that fair?

Knapp: Which ones do you call angry songs?

Well, there's "If It Made a Difference," where you sing, "Sorry I ever gave a damn / Sorry I even tried to waste all the better parts of me / On not just anyone who came to mind." And "Inside," where you sing, "I know they'll bury me before they hear the whole story … / Who the hell do you think you are?" Sounds angry to me!

Knapp: Okay. I'm okay if you call them angry. I prefer to think of them as, well …

Honest?

Knapp: I'm just really enjoying the opportunity as a writer to be able to put a kinetic energy into what's been welling up inside of me. It's great to be able to not feel like I've got to turn that frustration into a happy, cheery …

But you've never been like that, Jennifer. I don't listen to your old albums and think Oh, this is all happy, shiny music. I hate happy, shiny music!

Knapp: I think "angry" is probably … I'm not really an angry person. I'm passionate, and I've certainly been known to raise my voice and pound my fists, but in the heart of me it's not a destructive thing. It's more the type of energy of what it takes when a person's being thwarted. I wrote "Inside" in complete and utter fear to voices in my head that told me that I couldn't be a person of faith.

In the song's third line, you sing, "God forbid they give me grace." Do you really believe that no believers will show you grace?

Knapp: It's a much larger picture than that. I don't want anyone to think the song is targeted at the church, or at the ways we find judgment cast upon us. It's a challenge to break free of that and to own who you really are. That's my heart's cry for anyone I've ever met. It's not on my agenda to convert the world to a religion, but to convert the world to compassion and grace. I've experienced that in my life through Christianity.

"Inside" isn't about the church. It's about me, and how I struggle to be myself daily—honest and truthful to who I really am. It would break my heart if people got through this [album], especially the Christian audience, and found themselves with another artist that was just angry at the church. That's not where I'm at. If there's any anger or frustration on this record, it's the desperation to hold onto what is honest and true, and let the rest of it just burn.

I would be really sad if people thought this was a sword trying to cut up something I've been deeply moved by. Christian music has been a great surprise for me, but I didn't aspire to be a Christian music artist. I aspired to be a Christian in my private life, and I think it's a wonderful side effect that can happen with music—that you can get a lot of people to share in that specific experience. So it would be a tragedy if people couldn't see the forest for the trees, to see the connectivity between Kansas and Letting Go. It's there for me, gratefully, with a big, huge, massive sigh of relief. It's not like I left Christian music because Christian music was bad, or that I'm not participating in church because the church is evil. It's none of those things. For me, it's the journey that I'm on, trying to figure things about as best I can.

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PostPosted: Sat 17 Apr , 2010 10:11 pm 
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Jennifer Knapp wrote:
It's not on my agenda to convert the world to a religion, but to convert the world to compassion and grace.


Hey, I hope she succeeds. :)

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. I can't quite enter into all her feelings, but she's quite the woman, isn't she?

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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr , 2010 6:18 pm 
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Quote:
Knapp: I'm in no way capable of leading a charge for some kind of activist movement. I'm just a normal human being who's dealing with normal everyday life scenarios. As a Christian, I'm doing that as best as I can. The heartbreaking thing to me is that we're all hopelessly deceived if we don't think that there are people within our churches, within our communities, who want to hold on to the person they love, whatever sex that may be, and hold on to their faith. It's a hard notion. It will be a struggle for those who are in a spot that they have to choose between one or the other. The struggle I've been through—and I don't know if I will ever be fully out of it—is feeling like I have to justify my faith or the decisions that I've made to choose to love who I choose to love.



THIS times a million.

I never even know this singer, but she sounds like a really cool person.

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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr , 2010 7:58 pm 
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She sounds like an amazing person.

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PostPosted: Thu 06 May , 2010 4:29 pm 
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I found this very interesting today:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/entertainm ... ities.html

(I stumbled on this when some friends started posting the story about the students sent home for wearing American shirts on Cinco de Mayo.)

Anyway, I will fully admit that I was surprised by some of those celebrities.

My views on homosexuality have been changing slowly over the years. That is in no small part due to wonderful people like yovargas and others here, who are amazing people.

I just can't make myself get upset about this anymore or draw up any condemnation of it. When you know RL people, you just...can't. :shrug:

Eh, there's more I want to say, but I don't have the time right now. Hopefully later...

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PostPosted: Thu 06 May , 2010 9:26 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat 08 May , 2010 9:46 am 
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Awesome link, Lali. It's so nice to see positive change pick up the pace. Just the difference in tone of that slideshow today and coming outs from as little as a few years ago. There used to be an obligatory aura of scandal and decadence around any and every article with a gay theme, no matter the source- it's such a relief to see people talk about this stuff without getting their knickers all in a bunch.

Also, it wasn't so long ago a celebrity's coming out was considered a cry for attention, a tribute to the eccentricity of stardom- a whim! It was grouped into all the unacceptable things celebrities do which a decent, ordinary person could not get away with, therefore a barrier. And the celebrity would either be explicitly OUT or whisper it once and never breach the subject again. Privacy, of course, who would want to expose themselves, remind the public that they were different and risk being accused of disgusting exhibitionism at the same time?

But now, I don't know exactly how this happened; whether the press calmed down, whether activists actually managed to make a difference, whether so many famous people came out that it just became silly to tiptoe around it...but now when a celebrity says 'I'm something other than heterosexual' it's like they're reaching out and saying, look, it's okay. I'm not a freak. This is not part of my act. And you should talk about it because it's not something that can stand being kept secret.

I've never really been into following celebs' lives. Sure, I had a few obsessions like any teenage kid but unlike most others I could never work up an interest towards their private lives. When it turned out to be a real fan you had to devour every tidbit of news about the person...and what do I care about what their favourite food is? Similarly I thought it wasn't really appropriate for them to give interviews about their sex life. Never really imagined what they said could serve any purpose other than to make gossip.

I am rarely so happy to realise I was wrong. :)

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PostPosted: Sat 08 May , 2010 3:22 pm 
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Excellent post, Ro.

I come from a background of "Homosexuality is a sin." There is a very strong taboo against homosexuality, and a very strong dislike of homosexuals (though some would try to say "Love the sinner, hate the sin"--that's where I tried to be). I know some of my friends and fellow churchgoers would be shocked to find out that some of those celebrities are homosexuals. They are "disgusted" by Jennifer Knapp. If they're not disgusted, they are at least "very disappointed and saddened" by her revelation. I can guarantee to you that if any of them owned her CDs they've thrown them away.

Here's the thing, though. When you get to know someone--his/her beliefs, quirks, personalities, likes and dislikes, humor, passions, etc.--then all of the sudden you are left in a quandary. This is a person just like me, only he/she is attracted to people of the same sex. Hunh. But, otherwise, we are both humans, with many of the same fears, hopes, dreams, etc. But...but...they're gay. That's supposed to be wrong and bad. But I like this person--a lot!

And you sort of struggle this way for a while but, eventually, your heart just can't work up the energy to feel any righteous condemnation anymore. And you're like, "Who cares?"

I do not mean to make light of when a gay person comes out, but this is, in a very small way, somewhat similar. "Hi, I'm Lali, and I was raised Baptist and go to a Baptist church. But I don't think homosexuality is wrong anymore."

(I won't say that I'm Baptist, because I'm not. I merely attend a Baptist church because that's where I am right now.)

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PostPosted: Sat 08 May , 2010 8:52 pm 
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It's always easier to condemn what you don't know. I doubt there is anyone who can honestly say they've always judged strangers fairly. The best people will be more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to their close ones than to someone they have never met before.

Love the sinner hate the sin is a very good way to be, provided you really ARE that way. I mean, we do it every day! Everyone has friends who do stuff they personally think is wrong or inappropriate, and I'm not talking about extremes here. Little things. Being rude to the waitress. Not using the car blinkers. Buying products made in sweat shops. Not recycling.

If we cut ties with everyone who did stuff we don't like, I wouldn't be talking to anyone on this board, and I doubt they'd be talking to me.

So I have no issue with some religions thinking homosexuality is a sin (what they do about it is a different story). Religious or not, everyone figures out their own moral rules and they can vary from 'anything goes' to 'extreme prude'. Belief systems could be called guides we choose to help us work this out, that's all.

But the big big problem is that many people come to religion for the wrong reason. Instead of seeking ways to better themselves, they want religion to tell them that they are already very fine people, and to hyperbolise their so-called 'efforts' in a way that makes them feel like great martyrs. That's what people want. And what is the easiest way to get that feeling? Why, it is to pick a sin we are extremely unlikely to commit, and condemn it with all our hearts. Oh, look. Homosexuality. The behaviour of a minority which is furthermore unappealing to most people in the world, religious or not. Let's all jump on that for a while and make ourselves feel better. And that's how "Love the sinner, hate the sin" gets corrupted into "Hate the sin and make the sinner's life miserable".

And they don't even realise they're doing it. That's the horror. They really do think they are saving the world by doing exactly what, for one, Jesus said not to do- pick splinters out of other people's eyes and ignore logs in their own.

It's so satisfying for them to be 'outraged and saddened' as you said. It makes them feel like they're better, devout and obedient, but also compassionate (sic!). I mean it's so much easier to chat about how saddened you are (generic you) that a Christian musician is gay than to talk about how saddened you are that you yourself are a flawed and sinful person.

It makes me mad, so mad that people can be so blind. It wouldn't be half as devastating if they were aware of their own hypocrisy, but most of them honestly believe themselves to be righteous.

:(

I just want to tell them, stop focusing so much on what other people do in bed, because that is NOT the sin that's going to kill us all. Try thinking about greed, gluttony, wrath- the sins YOU commit every day. Try being a better person, and no, praying for gays doesn't count as improvement. Being kinder, healthier, more ecologically aware, more involved in helping the sick and the poor and the repressed, being more active in your life- that's the way to get to heaven. That's the way to save the world.

I wonder if these people you know who threw Jennifer Knapp's CDs away have also done meticulous research on all the other artists they like, and discarded the work of those who don't meet their standards perfectly. I bet not. It's so much easier to just reject gay people.

You know that REM song, "Call me a leper"?

"[Jesus] did make some observations, and I'm quoting them today
Judge not lest ye be judged, what a wonderful refrain
The studio audience disagrees. Have his lambs all gone astray?"

I think they have. THAT is disgusting and saddening.


(sorry, I guess this all hit a nerve)

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PostPosted: Sun 09 May , 2010 2:51 am 
Kill the headlights and put it in neutral
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Fantastic post, Ro. I couldn't have expressed my own opinion better. :)


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PostPosted: Sun 09 May , 2010 4:43 am 
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Jeez, Ro, you're quite the wise lady. :) :hug:


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PostPosted: Sun 09 May , 2010 8:37 am 
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A lady is one thing I am definitely not. But I know you meant that as a compliment so thank you :).

This is just stuff I have to deal with a lot, you know? And it makes me very angry, for two reasons : because I don't think being gay (etc) is a sin, and because I have chosen to stick with the Catholic faith nevertheless. So when the crowds completely miss the point, I have to answer for it. I have to be ashamed because of what the majority says. For heaven's sake, even the Vatican doesn't concern itself with gay people as much as regular churchgoers do!!!

I think it was a key factor to me deciding I don't think there's anything wrong with not being heterosexual- realising that the claim that it was a sin was so strong only because it was supported by people's need for validation, and not by their dedication to the idea. I do believe there is what the Church says, what God in our hearts says, and what people say, and all three do not necessarily correlate. That's why it's wonderful to hear this singer has managed to patch some sort of peace from this mess. She is gay, comfortable with it, and Christian still.

I hate that people have worked their hatred to a point where it seems like exclusion of gays is the main goal of Christianity. It's actually one of the reasons I stick with it. I want to see things change, I believe they CAN change, and if I leave, if I declare that I am no longer part of that group, then it will be one voice less for my point of view.

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PostPosted: Tue 11 May , 2010 12:25 pm 
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http://tv.yahoo.com/glee/show/44113/new ... ess-stance

Lali if you don't want this here I can move it.

Got to love Kristin.

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PostPosted: Wed 12 May , 2010 3:44 am 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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No, that's fine, Ara-anna. Thanks for posting it.

Ro, :bow: Really, you said so much that is worth saying "wow" about. :) This, in particular, was awesome!

Quote:
I just want to tell them, stop focusing so much on what other people do in bed, because that is NOT the sin that's going to kill us all. Try thinking about greed, gluttony, wrath- the sins YOU commit every day. Try being a better person, and no, praying for gays doesn't count as improvement. Being kinder, healthier, more ecologically aware, more involved in helping the sick and the poor and the repressed, being more active in your life- that's the way to get to heaven. That's the way to save the world.

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PostPosted: Wed 12 May , 2010 9:10 pm 
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I say this as someone who needs much improvement.

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PostPosted: Thu 13 May , 2010 12:39 pm 
stranded in dreamland
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Ro, your posts were brilliant. I wish that more people would stop swallowing whatever the church tells them and think a little more objectively. The Bible is a book written by men. Most of the New Testament is letters. Letters written by men. Just because the Apostle Paul has a vendetta against gays doesn't mean that their God does as well.

Now, I'm not a Bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but Paul comes across to me as being pompous and grouchy. I could also go in to the questionable methods used to put the Bible together to begin with. However, that would take more research to find sources, which I am not willing to do at the moment.

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PostPosted: Thu 13 May , 2010 9:30 pm 
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Even if one believes every word in the Bible is directly inspired by God, the near total lack of attention the Bible gives same-sex relationships would seem to be an indication of how (un)important it is to God. The public outrage over it is wildly disproportionate to the Bible's outrage. I'd say Ro likely has the reason why.


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PostPosted: Fri 14 May , 2010 6:27 am 
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That's the words I was looking for, yov, thanks. Because I understand people have different views on what is and isn't sinful. I can't claim to know I have it exactly right and so many others have it exactly wrong- I just believe and hope I'm on the right path. But whatever one thinks of non-heterosexual behaviour, it's not okay to hate. I know plenty of people who think it's a sin and yet manage to behave themselves well enough that gay people don't run screaming from their company.

Want a hug? :P And you're getting that due to a bias on my part :P :hug:

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PostPosted: Fri 14 May , 2010 11:11 am 
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Hugs always welcome. :hug: :)


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PostPosted: Fri 14 May , 2010 1:28 pm 
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I think this is a great thread. Ro your posts are 100% correct.

I read the other day a saying that made me really sad.

'Jesus, save me from your followers, their trying to kill me, Amen'

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