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Britain goes back to the dark ages

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Berhael
Post subject: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Tue 11 May , 2010 9:21 pm
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A Conservative government (in coalition with the Liberal Democrats) has just been declared after days of behind-the-scenes manoeuvring, after the general election last Thursday failed to deliver a clear winner.

It's the first Conservative government in 13 years. All the time I've lived in this country has been under a Labour government.

Bye-bye dreams of further integration into the EU. I would consider going back to Spain if things weren't even more fucked-up there. :(

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vison
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Tue 11 May , 2010 11:14 pm
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So, why is Spain so fucked up? Is it, and I am NOT BEING SNARKY, possibly because of "liberal" or "leftwing" policies and/or governments? When I read that in Greece people could retire with full benefits at the age of 58, many without ever having paid a nickel of taxes in their lives, it just made my head go wugga wugga.

"Liberal" policies and benefits only work if everyone pays their share. That's reality. Is Spain suffering from the same sorts of stupidity as Greece? "The rich" may not pay enough, but "the rich" cannot pay for all - working people have to carry their share of the load.

I don't know anything about Spain, and am asking out of sincere curiosity.

The debt crisis, wherever it is in the world, is due to one thing and one thing alone: outgo exceeding income. On a national or a personal level. It really is that simple.

I was certainly no fan of Mrs. Thatcher. Far from it. But it remains true that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Belt-tightening may be needed. Not her kind, but a rational and sensible kind.

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Berhael
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Wed 12 May , 2010 7:32 am
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vison, the main reason why Spain's economy is fucked up is our over-reliance on two unreliable sources of national income: tourism and the construction industry. We have always been a cheap tourist destination for Northern Europe, mainly Germany and the UK, but countries like Dubai are putting up a lot of competition at the moment, and the global economic crisis (coupled with the lower value of the pound sterling against the euro in the last couple of year) has meant that there have been lots fewer tourists the last couple of summers. Endemic lack of planning (this is not a left-wing fault, but a national one, it would seem, as it is historic) has meant that Spain was not prepared for a drop in numbers of tourists; we relied too heavily in this influx for a floating summer job market, and when that has gone, a lot of people (some of them I know myself) who depend on the summer months to survive for the rest of the year simply have had no jobs. It's crazy, but that's the way it is, and has been since the 60s, when Spain was firmly in the grip of a right-wing dictatorship and it started marketing itself as the tourist destination of choice for Europeans.

As for the construction industry, that is another can of worms that has been directly inherited from our past right-wing governments, who sold council-owned lands to private building companies in order to get quick cash. Those private companies started developing intensively, and the housing market went into an inflated spin which soon reached absolutely ridiculous proportions. People started having to get into 50-year mortgages - and when you can't get into the job market properly until your 30s because the way the culture and the economy works (traditionally people don't leave the parental home until very late, permanent jobs are rare in your 20s, and there is very little job security, again because the right-wing governments sided with business instead of social security), that means disaster. Also, there is endemic corruption in the construction system, with bribes paid to town councils to facilitate building in protected areas, etc... and EU cash injections have been massively abused and appropriated by the wrong people. So when the bubble burst, with the global credit crunch, it dropped Spain's economy into a frightening free-fall.

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Iavas_Saar
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Wed 12 May , 2010 12:48 pm
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Patricia - you are reminding me a bit of the right in America that continually prophesize national destruction through the communist policies of Obama. "Dark ages" is surely going over the top.. are the tories planning to put the teaching of creationism back in the school syllabus? And why should we want to integrate further into Europe? Where does it stop, when it becomes the United States of Europe? Why can't we cooperate and trade with Europe without continually eroding our sovereignty?

It seems to me that a coalition government, while it could achieve nothing, could also usher in some (relatively) better politics. And you are going to get some of your liberal policies represented, and a referendum on voting reform.

I just don't see the point in doom and gloom here. I can understand voicing displeasure, but not changing your entire opinion on the worth of living in a country, when all that's happened is a switch between two parties that have both been governing the country for generations. The current government might not be anywhere near ideal, but atleast we're not living in Burma, China, N Korea etc etc etc. The sky is not falling, cheer up! :)

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Wed 12 May , 2010 6:48 pm
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Hey it could be worse, you could be in Arizona.

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Berhael
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Wed 12 May , 2010 8:09 pm
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There is some cool architecture in Arizona...
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(not to mention the awesome landscape)
Shame about the locals, it would appear? ;)

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Wed 12 May , 2010 11:41 pm
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You know, I'm actually pleased to see Labour lose, and not because of economic theory.

I'm glad that the party of Blair, Bush's poodle, lost. Blair wanted to vicariously relive the glory days of the British Empire so much that he shouted "me too" every time Bush farted.

Brown was only a placeholder.

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Berhael
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Wed 12 May , 2010 11:58 pm
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The end is nigh. I agree with C_G on a large part of his post. :Q

My main disagreement is on Brown, who IMO was a hard-working and intelligent politician. Uncharismatic as they come, but honest. His debacle at the hands of a bigoted woman in Rochdale only made me suddenly like him more. Obviously that was his death sentence as a politician, but to me his comments showed that despite being one of the world's political leaders he still had some integrity as a human being.

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Iavas_Saar
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 7:53 am
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If I call you "a mindless Europhile" who couldn't care less if every country in Europe ends up looking the same, will you suddenly like me more?

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Nin
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 8:30 am
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Berhael, in Germany social-democrat and conservative governements have both been in the lead. Switzerland is governed by a coalition ever since .... 1848.... with various changings. We had an extreme-rightwing politician among the seven federal councillers! And - once in the governemen, he could not realise a quarter of what he had claimed and said.

It does not change the world to have a different gouvernement! (Even Bush could not fuck up the States completely, even though he did a good job!)

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 9:34 am
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Patricia - you are reminding me a bit of the right in America that continually prophesize national destruction through the communist policies of Obama. "Dark ages" is surely going over the top.. are the tories planning to put the teaching of creationism back in the school syllabus? And why should we want to integrate further into Europe? Where does it stop, when it becomes the United States of Europe? Why can't we cooperate and trade with Europe without continually eroding our sovereignty?

It seems to me that a coalition government, while it could achieve nothing, could also usher in some (relatively) better politics. And you are going to get some of your liberal policies represented, and a referendum on voting reform.
I am pretty much in agreement with Iavas here.

And I lived in Thatcher's Britain, and those were the dark ages. :blackeye: Kind of. ;)

At least, Ber, it's not all Tories in charge. ;) This coalition government might all end in a bitter divorce but it might just work.

I am not, and am very unlikely to ever be, a Tory voter but Cameron does seem to represent a more liberal, compassionate kind of Conservatism and has worked hard at making his party more progressive. We'll see just how deep that goes, of course, and I am nervous about where the Tories plan to slash. I don't like their record on public spending cuts! :( But maybe having Clegg alongside Cameron in a civil partnership ;) will curb Tory excesses. I hope that Cameron can keep at bay the more hardline right-wing elements in his party, certainly.

But I don't embrace absolutely everything the Liberal Democrats stand for either. For example, I would like a far greater degree of transparency, honesty and democracy from those who claim to represent us in Europe. There is no party here that represents my POV: I'm not a complete Euro-sceptic and regard the likes of UKIP as cranky and not a little xenophobic. I don't want the UK to leave the Union but neither do I want us to surrender our national sovereignty, piece by piece. (Why on earth should we?)

Also, on the domestic front, whoever got into power would have to make drastic cuts. Whoever is in power now will have to do very unpopular things.

(And we have the Olympics looming like a giant juggernaut. :Q Right on top of our national deficit. :roll: I'll bet the French are sighing with relief that it's us and not them. ;) )

Labour have done a lot in recent years that have disappointed me, not least their stance on civil liberties. However, I am glad that they didn't get massacred at the polls, we need them to be a strong opposition.

The Rochdale incident was wildly overblown but although I think Brown misread the situation with Mrs Duffy, it didn't make me think too badly of him, if only because everyone makes a bad judgment call now and then. (His honesty and lack of charismaticism endears me to him, too.)

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 3:11 pm
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I think that Cameron has been given an extraordinarily easy ride given his history with the poll tax and as an aide to Michael Howard. Thanks I suppose to the Daily Mail, the Daily Express and dear old Rupert.
It took Paxman on the BBC to dare remind him he had claimed expenses to have his wisteria pruned. Despite that, Cameron got away with sounding self righteous about the expense culture of everyone else.
Nor has there been a whisker of examination of the rest of his team, most of whom were packed away from the Press during the campaign. What did we see of George Osbourne apart from a single TV debate? Exactly how many of his government ministers went to the same private school?
Clegg of the Liberal Party will have to be very very careful not to get shafted by his bigger partners. They will destroy him in any conceivable way they can and the Tory press will do their dirty work for them. I await events glumly.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 3:23 pm
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And in that Arizona house I guess one mustn't be too forgetful about the condition or even existence of one's underwear.

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 4:53 pm
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Hunh, interestingly, I find British politics as painful and mind-numbingly boring as American politics. :D

I, of course, wish you all the best, though, and hope the new situation works out well! :cheers:

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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 6:14 pm
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I was holding out for a Conservative majority government, but this’ll do

In all seriousness, while I’ve learned to be cautious about politics, I can’t help but feel a bit optimistic about this new Government. A broad left-right coalition, two out-of-the-mould leaders – it could be something entirely new and different to anything the U.K. has experienced before. I can understand that many Lib Dem supporters probably want Nick Clegg’s head on a pike over this, but it seems like the most reasonable outcome from the election. And progressives can hardly complain – I can’t see how there could be a more moderate Conservative government than one led by David Cameron and propped up by the Lib Dems.

I’d suggest that Europe’s problems go much deeper than the factors Ber outlined. The social democratic welfare state needs a lot of workers to pay for it, which means new young people entering the workforce and high rates of participation against non-participation. Since birth rates in southern Europe collapsed in the 1980s, there have been far fewer young people than before. That combined with increasing lifespans, has led to a chronic aging of the population where far fewer workers support far more retirees. And this will only get worse as the baby boomers retire. At the same time there are far more young people than before spending more time in higher education than entering the workforce. The EU has been importing immigrants from the Middle East, North Africa and the former colonies of its member states to try and correct the imbalance, but their communities are often afflicted by unemployment to a far greater degree than the original European ones. It’s not a recipe for social stability, as we’ve seen fairly regularly in the banlieues of Paris.

I started a thread on TORC and HoF a little while back called ‘The Decline of the West’ where I suggested that both the United States and the European Union were on track for collapse within the next fifty years. It’s an extreme argument, but there’s no denying the long-term budgetary, economic and social forecast of the EU is not particularly good.

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nienna
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 8:16 pm
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I agree, L_M...the new coalition is by far the best outcome; If the Tories and Lib Dems can actually put national interest before narrow party interest then the new government will be much stronger than its detractors suggest. It's also a better result for the Tories than a slim majority, because the Tories could otherwise have been continually held to ransom by self-indulgent rebels within their party. Likewise, if Cameron had scraped a majority with just 38% he would have no manadate to take the tough economic decisions the country needs.

As it is now, the combined government has the backing of 59.2% of the electorate (easily the largest share of the vote for any government since WWII.)


Of course, cynically speaking, the Tories can use the Lib Dems as a "human shield", since they will be just as answerable for the tough policies, and the potency of attacks from Labour and the trade unions will be diluted.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 13 May , 2010 8:37 pm
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Lord_Morningstar wrote:
I started a thread on TORC and HoF a little while back called ‘The Decline of the West’ where I suggested that both the United States and the European Union were on track for collapse within the next fifty years. It’s an extreme argument, but there’s no denying the long-term budgetary, economic and social forecast of the EU is not particularly good.
You're completely, utterly, and totally wrong. (Had to say that to someone, haven't done it yet today. Since you got a minor detail wrong you're today's target.)

It's not extreme.

The extremists say within the next ten years.

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Berhael
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Fri 14 May , 2010 5:06 pm
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Well, if I had entitled this thread "Mildly interesting result of the UK elections" it would have got even fewer views. :D

Iavas, I like you already, you don't have to go around saying nice things of me like calling me an Europhile. :halo:

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Thu 02 Sep , 2010 4:25 pm
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So, how did the first 5 months go? Any big changes yet?

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Wilma
Post subject: Re: Britain goes back to the dark ages
Posted: Sun 12 Sep , 2010 1:38 pm
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I am interested in this as well. How has it gone?

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