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Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19

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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Sat 23 Oct , 2010 1:52 pm
 
 
Obviously I see the worst of things. I still don't believe that if you make drugs more easily available that good things will come of it. One of the things that keeps most people away from drugs is the fact that they are illegal.

I also don't see the cost of illegal drugs going down. It's supply and demand. You can get pot cheap and easy right now and people are still stealing to get it. I don't drink beer (can't stand the taste) but I don't think it's cheap. Cigarettes are tightly regulated and they are not cheap either. If you legalize drugs, the cost will eventually climb to a point where people can't afford it and will steal to get it because they "have to have it to live." (FYI: I am not talking about medicinal pot because I think that is a totally different subject)

CG, I have to disagree that the reason for the illegal activity surrounding drugs is because they are illegal. The violence is a breakdown in moral and ethical behavior. The stealing is to feed an addiction that they cannot control. Again, beer and cigarettes are legal and people still steal to obtain those things. I've seen a mother give up her child to be able to keep feeding her heroin addiction.

The exception being heroin, drugs a relatively cheap right now. On this same vein, do you think the people who are currently making a living selling drugs are going to give it up without a fight? They're going to do what they have to to keep what they have, that's human nature. They will continue in their ways because it's the make up of their moral and ethical being. They don't care what happens to others, as long as they get what they want.

freddy


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TWT
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Sat 23 Oct , 2010 4:40 pm
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I would be interested in getting your opinion on something Feredir, cause I see many people make the same mistake in referring to pot, coke or whatever else in one category and alcohol and cigarettes in another. In the end, the fact is they are all drugs. And fact is that both cigarettes and alcohol are both more addictive and harmful than pot. I'm not talking about any other drugs for the moment. From my own personal experience, I find that unless you've had a couple of illegal drugs more than once, you don't realize how much of a drug alcohol is. We're so used to it and its effects that we forget its just another (tasty in this case) drug.

For me its often a question of freedom. Why should a government arbitrarily decide that some drugs are ok when studies show that other drugs are less harmful yet remain illegal. I stand by that we are living in pot prohibition the same way people in the 1900s lived through alcohol prohibition. I think someday we will look back and wonder why it took so long to legalize something when much worse things are available to anyone.

Here in Toronto I work at The Beer Store. There are only two chains you can buy alcohol at here in Ontario. I see the worst of the worst when it comes to alcohol and drugs. I laugh sometimes cause when kids come in smelling of pot, they're generally rediculously polite and nice, even when you don't serve them cause they're just too high. The drunks? They usually get angry and steal the beer and run out. So again my question is, why is something so low on the chart still illigal? I understand that everything will eventually have a negative effect somewhere, sometime. But we live in countries of freedom that don't restrict every single dangerous thing. There aren't mandatory governors on all our cars, we can buy and sell guns, even tobacco which has an extremely high death rate and high cost to treat are legal. Yet pot isn't? Come on world.

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/28

The above has a really interesting chart.


One more note. I completely agree that there are complete adicts out there who would give up their child for a high. However where our system both in Canada and in the USA fail is that those people should not be criminals, they should be patients. It that article about how decriminalizing all drugs in Portugal affected their drug problem, in the ensuing five years (since 2001) people checking themselves into programs to help themselves doubled. Street deaths and HIV cases were cut in half. Some drugs are terrible, but I don't want an adict to die any more than I want someone to die in a car accident. Its time specifically for reform and as part of that, I believe, legalization of marijuana.


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vison
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Sat 23 Oct , 2010 10:32 pm
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I daresay there are pot addicts, but they aren't common. I have plenty of sad personal experience of drug addicts and how they behave, and I never yet met a pothead who was violent. I suppose there might be a pot smoker here or there who would steal to buy pot, but I've never actually known one. On the other hand, I've known meth users and crack addicts who would do just about anything for their drug.

If everyone who used pot went on to use hard drugs, there would be almost no one between the ages of 20 and 65 who wasn't a drug addict.

I agree with TWT: they are not going to "get better" by being treated as criminals merely for being drug addicts.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Sun 24 Oct , 2010 1:54 am
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I don't doubt that you've seen a woman try to trade her child for more heroin, but have you seen a woman try to trade her child for alcohol? But to say that the reason people stay away from drugs is because of their illegality is short sighted. That didn't keep people away from alcohol during the first prohibition. When the first prohibition ended, the price of alcohol did go down. The price of alcohol is high right now compared to what? The price of cigarettes is high right now compared to what? The price of heroin is low right now compared to what?

The connection with the illegality surrounding drugs and the illegality of drugs is many faceted. Part of the breakdown of ethical behavior you note is the result of their being illegal, because making unnecessary laws breaks down the basic respect for the law, and that breaks down repect for laws that have a point such as laws against theft and murder.

Since the whole drug economy is illegal, other ways to pay for drugs aside from money is illegal activity. The grocer who sells alcohol and cigarettes would be an idiot to ask you to beat someone up for him, kill someone for him, prostitute yourself for him, just for some booze and smokes. It is the illegal nature of the drugs that fuels those other illegal activities.

But, to end this note on a lighter note, here's Top Ten Cannabis Studies the Government Wished it had Never Funded.

10. MARIJUANA USE HAS NO EFFECT ON MORTALITY
9. HEAVY MARIJUANA USE AS A YOUNG ADULT WON’T RUIN YOUR LIFE
8. THE “GATEWAY EFFECT” MAY BE A MIRAGE.
7, PROHIBITION DOESN’T WORK (PART I)
6. PROHIBITION DOESN’T WORK (PART II): DOES PROHIBITION CAUSE THE “GATEWAY EFFECT”?)
5. OOPS, MARIJUANA MAY PREVENT CANCER (PART I)
4. OOPS, MARIJUANA MAY PREVENT CANCER, (PART II)
3. OOPS, MARIJUANA MAY PREVENT CANCER (PART III)
2. OOPS, MARIJUANA MAY PREVENT CANCER (PART IV)
1. MARIJUANA DOES HAVE MEDICAL VALUE

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Sun 24 Oct , 2010 10:31 pm
 
 
TWT- The reason I refer to drugs separate from cigarettes and alcohol (actually a poison and not a drug) is due to the illegality of the drugs. I understand that cigarettes and alcohol can be very addictive. I also understand that a lesser amount of people who use pot become addicted than other drugs.

I disagree with you that you have to use drugs to understand drugs. I fully understand drugs and have never toked, not even once. I have seen in all it's glory was alcohol does when someone drives drunk (held a kid two years younger than me and watched him die) and I have seen what drugs can do when I told a family member that a loved one had overdosed. Extremes, maybe but still reality.


CG- the price of each of those is compared to each other. I could go right now and get the pills of my choice that would provide me with more of a high for what the cost of a case of beer would be. Drugs are also cheaper now than when I first started in police work 17 years ago.

We'll just have to disagree on where the breakdown comes from. I suspect we are both partially correct.

Vison and TWT- I don't disagree with you about treatment, depending on the crime of course. But there is another aspect- You have to want help in order to get help. Sadly, Lindsey Lohan is a prime example of someone getting every chance but not wanting the help.

freddy


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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Sun 24 Oct , 2010 11:30 pm
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vison wrote:
I daresay there are pot addicts, but they aren't common.
I read somewhere that people don't become physiologically addicted to pot like they do many other drugs, including alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine, but they can become psychologically dependent on it and I've seen that play out to a certain extent. A former coworker of mine pretty much required pot in order to keep his anger in check. He was much easier to be around if he was smoking regularly. In fact, we could tell when he hadn't been smoking for a while because he got very very cranky. :/

I can think of one excellent perk to the legalization of marijuana: at concerts, the hosts will finally be able to order all the pot smokers to go light up on the sidelines as well as the tobacco smokers. And if that happens, I won't spend the next 24 hours coughing like I've been known to do after shows (the amount of toking really seems to depend on the act, but the absolute worst was the Pixies; there was literally no way I could escape the smoke without leaving the theater and not only did I have my usual allergic-ish reaction to the smoke I ended up with a contact high as well :roll:).

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vison
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Mon 25 Oct , 2010 12:05 am
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I'm all for people who smoke - no matter what they smoke - to be issued suits that keep all the smoke inside so they can enjoy it and we on the outside can't be irritated by it.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Mon 25 Oct , 2010 5:01 pm
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Yes, and ban campfires and put giant airtight bubbles over forest fires as well. :help:

(I actually feel really bad about the campfire thing - they are fun and there's nothing like a s'more made with marshmallows roasted over a flame, but the smoke is a coughing fest :()

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Mon 25 Oct , 2010 5:55 pm
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When my youngest daughter was on pot (but I didn't know it at the time) her grades plummeted, she started skipping school and getting in trouble with her teachers. She even ran away from home when we tried to get her to into counselling. If I hadn't gone to her work the next day and pleaded with her to come home again, we might have lost her permanently. She was very close to dropping out of school but summer vacation happened, and over the summer she straightened herself out.

And then told me about it at the end of summer. :shock:

She decided for herself that the drug use was very bad for her, and she didn't like where it was taking her and quit. I'll take her word for it. She's a very strong minded individual and once she sets her mind on a path, that's where she goes. But for less determined people, having legal access to such a mind altering drug would be devastating.

I wouldn't object to marijuana being a prescription drug- but as a recreational one? Not a good idea. Not if you want to do anything challenging with your life. It's an ambition killer.

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TheMary
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Mon 25 Oct , 2010 7:50 pm
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TWT wrote:
I know up north where I'm from the big thing up there are oxy pills. For those who don't know what those are its oxycodone, or oxycontin (the brand name) and instead of taking the time release pill for severe pain, people crush it and snort or inject it which disables the time-release and rushes it right into the blood. Its dangerous and bad. Its often referred to as hillbilly heroin and has been described in studies as the main gateway drug to heroin. So what I'm saying is if I'm a kid and I want to do drugs and I have the option of smoking a joint in my back yard with friends or doing an illegal, bad, harder to get drug, I'll gladly go with the former.
I missed this tid bit from you TWT and I then I reflected and remembered that one of Rob's old high school friend is serving 10 years for armed robbery trying to get money to feed his Oxy habit. Oxy is expensive. You can sell it for $80 a pill, I'm not sure what's so hillbilly about that.

I can only imagine how desperate he was to get money to feed his habit that he resorted to armed robbery.

I would also have to agree with Freddy that you don't have to experience the drug to know what it's like. Drugs effect people in different ways. For instance, I've been drunk lots of times and it's generally a good time. But recently I saw my older brother drunk and it was the scariest thing I've ever seen. To me alcohol should be illegal for my brother to consume, but it's not. It's strange that alcohol made it back out into the world and it's so devistating to so many people.

I'm not sure what the point of my rant is, but I now that alcohol has been far more detrimental in my family's life that marijuana ever has and that's all I'm going to say about that.

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TWT
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Tue 26 Oct , 2010 1:36 pm
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From a pure reading perspective, I'm enjoying everyone's responses.

Feredir, I think I meant that I believe someone can't truly understand how alcohol is a drug unless they've had other drugs. It may be completely untrue but I've found it true for myself. I used to drink a lot, not like an alcoholic, but get wasted with friends sometimes. It was "fun", but I never liked the side effects. I've never really had an anger problem, but alcohol doesn't help me become less angry when something irritates me. Now I just realize that if I want to chill then alcohol is no longer my drug of choice. I barely drink anymore. I find it harder to control myself when drunk and sometimes have little self-control. I'm NOT proud to admit it and I hope to god it never happens again, but I have driven a couple times when I've drank too much. When I'm high though I can see clearly and I just say, na, I'm not driving. I'm able to have that control. And perhaps that scenario only applies to me, or maybe not, I don't know.


MH, I'm certainly not going to disagree with your experiences. In fact I understand them really well. That's why I've always supported a 21+ age minimum for pot. I do think it can kill ambition, grades etc. But just like any other drug, you have to be mature enough to understand how doing something will affect your life. That's why we have minimum ages for driving, drinking and other things. Thinking of my youth, pot distracted me for a while, so did booze, so did girls. Anything can interfere and I don't think that something like pot should be available to you when you're in school working out your life. It should be a more mature decision.

Kids try it and yes it often can mess them up young cause it distracts from what they should be doing. That's another reason I'm for legalization. Because instead of lying to kids and showing anti-drug commercials like I see on TV here that shows toking up leads to rolling on extasy and snorting coke all the time, we could actually educate on drugs. I've love to see a drug education class in school the same way we have sex-ed. That way they may decide not to and if they decide to still try it (which they might have anyway) then at least they'll be educated on how to do it safely.
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The connection with the illegality surrounding drugs and the illegality of drugs is many faceted. Part of the breakdown of ethical behavior you note is the result of their being illegal, because making unnecessary laws breaks down the basic respect for the law, and that breaks down repect for laws that have a point such as laws against theft and murder.
CG, I agree %100 with what you say. I was brought up to respect the law, and I do (mostly), but when laws like this exist its hard to respect the system. Even moreso when its not enforced, showing that even the authorities have little respect for the same laws. In Toronto we have vapor lounges. You pay $5 to get in, bring your own weed and you can go sit on a couch and use one of the house vaporizers (something I really like to do because its healthy, allowing all the cannabanoids to enter your body, sweet tasting, has no strain on the lungs and also very relaxing). They don't sell weed or bake it into any products (one did once and got completely shut down and I agree with that). They also don't serve alcohol, they just sell drinks and munchies. I know why the police don't shut it down, because the 10 highest people that walk out of there pale in severity to the 10 drunkest people that walk out of the bar next door. The law here sees it, I really think its only a matter of time before its incorporated into our system more efficiently.


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Estel Dúnadan
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Fri 05 Nov , 2010 1:41 am
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Vison - I wish it too! I'm glad, though, that Melbourne's public transport system (I'm not sure about the rest of Melbourne) has banned smoking in any covered area. So the smoke can dissipate easily, and there's somewhere for non-smokers to go. Not that it's obeyed fully yet...

River - If your campfires smoke that much, you're probably using wood that's too green or damp. The last I-don't-know-how-many campfires I've sat at hardly smoked at all.
*ponders*
Well, I guess drought-stricken Australia has no problem finding dry wood, but you have more trouble.

Forest fires, or bush fires, OTOH, could also do with a giant bubble! Then they could burn out safely! No more Black Saturdays!

By the way, can someone please explain what a s'more is?

Personally, I don't like most alcohol. I mean I don't like the taste, not just the results. I like other drinks better, so I just don't see the point of alcohol. Besides, lemonade / soda is much cheaper. Surely, if people considered their futures, they would moderate their use of alcohol and drugs? (OK, that sounds pamby, but isn't failing to consider results the cause of most errors?)

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Fri 05 Nov , 2010 9:19 pm
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S'more = graham cracker, chocolate, marshmallow, graham cracker. Toasted over a camp fire.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Fri 05 Nov , 2010 9:30 pm
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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Sat 06 Nov , 2010 6:42 pm
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Estel Dúnadan wrote:
River - If your campfires smoke that much, you're probably using wood that's too green or damp. The last I-don't-know-how-many campfires I've sat at hardly smoked at all.
*ponders*
Well, I guess drought-stricken Australia has no problem finding dry wood, but you have more trouble.
No shortage of dry wood in Colorado either (where River and I both live), but burning anything creates smoke and someone who is sensitive to smoke will notice it immediately. It's the main reason I agree that it would be nice if people only smoked in a bubble. I think most well-meaning smokers believe that if they are smoking outside, they aren't disturbing anyone. Not true! I can easily smell smoke from ten feet away and it bothers me. I never say anything and I wouldn't advocate stricter anti-smoking laws, but it's a still annoying.


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