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Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 12:09 pm
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yovargas wrote:
LalaithUrwen wrote:
Theft is about the only one of those crimes that I could see decreasing significantly if drug use were made legal.
Weeell...forgive me the somewhat silly point but....if drug possession was legal, then drug possession crimes would drop, um, pretty significantly. :P Which means less crowded jails amongst other potential benefits. I definitely don't think possession of any substance should be a crime.
True. :P I wasn't going to go through all of the possible crimes related to drugs. Drug possession charges are usually minor in comparison to other charges, however. Unless you're toting around a bunch--in which case you're charged with intention to sell. And, then, that could still possibly be illegal depending on how the legalization took shape. So, you know, actually, possession could still be illegal if you're not following the new laws governing drug use. It would really depend.

I'm really thinking of domestic violence, impaired driving, assaults, abuse, sex crimes, child neglect, etc.
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I can't see what possible benefit there is to society to jailing someone with a coke habit or whatever.
No, but neither do I think it's responsible to let that person waltz away either. And, anyway, possession alone is not as common of a reason for a person to be incarcerated as possession plus something else, such as assault, theft, domestic violence, etc.

More later--hopefully!

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 5:04 pm
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Legalizing drugs wouldn't just cut the number of people arrested for possession. By legalizing the drugs, you also legalize their sale and the whole trade can therefore be cleaned up...and taxed. ;)

Colorado legalized medical marijuana in 2000 or 2004. People with pot cards can grow something like 6 plants for their personal use. If they lack green thumbs, they can assign those rights to a caregiver, who can grow as many plants as s/he has the rights for. When AG Holder announced that the Justice Department was not going to prosecute marijuana cases in states where medical pot was legal, suddenly dispensaries started popping up all over the place. Because of the disconnect between federal and state law, and because the state rules about who can sell pot and where they can sell it may or may not change, the medical pot business is a nervous one, but it's there. You get your card from a doctor and some are more scrupulous than others so there are certainly people out there with pot cards who don't need one, sort of like how, in some states, where alcohol was sold for medicinal purposes only, there were people with alcohol prescriptions who didn't need them. When the dispensaries first began to mushroom, from the way the papers told it, you'd've thoguht the crime rate was sky-rocketing but then the local police chiefs got up and pointed out that it wasn't any worse for the dispensaries than it was for any other business and would the journalists please reflect that in their work. And we still do occasionally read about major marijuana busts in Colorado - the difference between legal and illegal is the number of plants you're allowed to grow. But, on the whole, the state is not going down in flames and bullets and reefer madness, though some people get scandalized about where dispensaries end up located and my parents, last time they were here, are just generally aghast. The overall character of the establishments, from the exterior (since I neither need nor desire marijuana, I don't have a card :P), seems to vary, sort of like how the characters of bars and liquor stores will vary. Some are definitely seedy. Dr. Reefer, with it's neon lights and dire need of fresh paint, comes to mind. Others come off as classy and you'd hardly know what they were about but for the leaf. Well, one of the dispensaries near where I used to live, comes to mind. Lotus is another one that looks like a quality establishment, with a name that is thankfully generic given that one can see their entrance and sign from the parking lot of my former condo complex. When my parents asked me about it, I, with a perfectly straight face, told them it was a yoga studio.

Lali, addicts of all stripes can and do get ordered into rehab.

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 6:12 pm
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Riverthalos wrote:

Lali, addicts of all stripes can and do get ordered into rehab.
Right. Did I say otherwise? If something I said seemed to imply otherwise, I apologize, because I know addicts get ordered into rehab.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 10:09 pm
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Jude wrote:
I just came across this on another site where they were talking about spiritual experiences:
Quote:
I think the most a peace with myself I've ever been was 20 years ago, when I would sit in the shade of a cannabis tree in the afternoon behind my barn after work, and smoke marijuana. Since then, the closest thing to a spiritual experience were the times, when I was serving a minimum ten year federal sentence for growing marijuana, and I would be laying in my bunk listening to Prarie Home Companion, or reading, or someone in the cell would say something that would strike me as so funny that I would laugh so hard, I would lose consciousness of anything else but me laughing.
:Q Ten years for growing marijuana?

Ten years??

Ten years???

Is there anyone who doesn't find that obscene?
Saw a clip from a courtroom. A guy got 5 years for child molestation. Another guy in the gallery created an uproar because he had just been sentenced to 6.5 years for possession of 0.5 grams of meth. He thought it was both unjust and absurd that he got a higher sentence than someone who victimized a 7 year old. He spit at the defendant, swore at the judge, and when the judge sentenced him to 2 month for contempt he asked for a year because he had contempt for any judge who thinks meth is worse than molestation.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 10:12 pm
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yovargas wrote:
LalaithUrwen wrote:
Theft is about the only one of those crimes that I could see decreasing significantly if drug use were made legal.
Weeell...forgive me the somewhat silly point but....if drug possession was legal, then drug possession crimes would drop, um, pretty significantly. :P Which means less crowded jails amongst other potential benefits. I definitely don't think possession of any substance should be a crime. I can't see what possible benefit there is to society to jailing someone with a coke habit or whatever.
Netherlands to Close Prisons: Not Enough Criminals

Their drug policy has cut crime overall, not just the crime associated with peaceful drug activities.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 10:32 pm
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CG, I'm reading different info than you, then. The results from the Netherlands seems to be quite the mixed bag, with much of the "reduction" in crime coming as a result of their policy of non-enforcement of laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_polic ... etherlands

Then:

http://www.justice.gov/dea/demand/speakout/09so.htm

I linked to this one because it will probably generate a little more respect from some here, as it is a government website.

Certainly, there are plenty of other websites, just as biased as any pro-legalization website, that I could link to but won't. :shrug:

I try to keep an open mind, yes, but I don't see mine changing on this one. Just because some harmful substances are legal doesn't mean all should be legal. Just because marijuana doesn't seem that awful doesn't mean it's good for you. In fact, there are quite a few things about it that are not good for you. And then there are the hard drugs...

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 11:04 pm
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I don't think anyone should smoke cigarettes, but there's no way I would support making them illegal.

Perhaps the ideal solution would be to legalize marijuana, but also have an information campaign encouraging people to not use it, much like the anti-cigarette ads we see nowadays. Those ads seem to be working - my generation smokes less than my parents' generation, and the next generation smokes less than my generation.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 11:40 pm
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Jude wrote:
I don't think anyone should smoke cigarettes, but there's no way I would support making them illegal.
How libertarian of you. :P


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Jude
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sat 04 Sep , 2010 11:45 pm
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:uhoh:

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sun 05 Sep , 2010 12:42 am
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(Well, I'm very libertarian except for two things that I can think of: legalization of drugs and abortion.)

:Wooper:

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TWT
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Sun 05 Sep , 2010 1:03 am
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I like this at times lighthearted conversation about drugs. :P

C.G., its the "little" things like that that cause one to have small faith in 'the system'. That's so absurd there almost aren't words. Actually, I think I'd call it perverse. And I believe meth is the worst of the worst.

Lali, the only thing I would make a point on in what you said is the harm of marijuana. I would agree with you if we were talking excess. Even now, there are very few people among pot smokers who are massive potheads. In regular doses, even a spliff a night, it can do almost nothing but good for you. Like I said before, its cancer prevention ability alone sets it aside not just from other drugs, but from vitamines and pills that fight free radicals in our bodies. In fact, our bodies produce THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, to fight pain. Its really the closest to natural you can get. I will agree with you though on harder drugs, that even though they can be beneficial they do have their dark side. Weed though, you really have to look around hard with a flashlight to find it, and when you do you have to wonder if its worth so much effort to keep something illegal when you're pulling teeth just to find something bad about it. (And the "you" in those sentances are hypothetical people, not you you. :) )

What Jude says is what I've always thought is pivotal. The government (here at least) spends money on TV ads trying to get kids to not take drugs, and that's fine. But if it were legal (even if not for kids), then that would give them licence to educate on safe usage of drugs. Cause the simple fact is, (some) kids will not be stopped by an ad telling them not to do something. But if there were ads showing the detrimental effect of bad drugs like meth with a tagline like "don't do illegal drugs" it might at least help the youth turn away from the stuff that can kill or permanently damage you.

I know up north where I'm from the big thing up there are oxy pills. For those who don't know what those are its oxycodone, or oxycontin (the brand name) and instead of taking the time release pill for severe pain, people crush it and snort or inject it which disables the time-release and rushes it right into the blood. Its dangerous and bad. Its often referred to as hillbilly heroin and has been described in studies as the main gateway drug to heroin. So what I'm saying is if I'm a kid and I want to do drugs and I have the option of smoking a joint in my back yard with friends or doing an illegal, bad, harder to get drug, I'll gladly go with the former.


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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Mon 06 Sep , 2010 3:43 pm
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Several prominent Mexican politicians (I think Vicente Fox was one) have stood up and called for the US to decriminalize illegal drugs. I notice this subject hasn't been touched on much yet, so I thought I would bring it up. To me, the drug wars in Mexico, Colombia, and other countries are the most powerful reasons to support drug legalization in the US. It's hard to know exactly what the effects would be, but I would imagine that legalizing drugs here would lead to at least some decrease in drug violence taking place in those neighbors to the south.

As far as the more immediate effects in the US, isn't California an example of a state that is having massive problems with both prison budgets and prison overcrowding? I'd heard of their three-strike rule, which I guess imposes heavy prison sentences on people after their third criminal conviction--even if it is a minor drug possession or other non-violent crime. Do any of our California residents know more about this?


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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Mon 06 Sep , 2010 3:55 pm
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I've notice everyone always complains about the drugs running into the US via Mexico/Columbia and how evil bad the drug lords are....but no one ever mentions if the demand from the US Citizens wasn't there the drug lords would be out of business. They say to shut down the drug lords...how does that decrease the demand of the drugs :scratch: I have never in my entire life understood that reasoning. Stop the supplier and the demand goes away....no..it means a new supplier shows up a few months later. The demand just doesn't disappear. And yes indeedy do, it's American Citizens asking for those drugs...if were Mexican or Columbian citizens why would the drug lords transport them here? Getting rid of drug lords is putting a bandaid on the cancer that is drug use in the US.

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TWT
Post subject: Re: Drugs
Posted: Thu 14 Oct , 2010 3:14 pm
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Update: November 2nd California vote on legalizing marijuana.

I actually found a really good short article from Forbes.

http://blogs.forbes.com/streettalk/2010 ... -be-legal/

I don't usually link to Wikipedia but they do have a simple breakdown of Proposition 19 and they have the results to about 10 different polls which I found informative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_19

All in all I agree with Forbes. There are definitely flaws with proposition 19, especially financially. I do believe it has to start somewhere. And where I disagree with Forbes is in their negative view of the financial impact it might have. They're right that it won't solve the problem tomorrow, but lets start looking down the road. This certainly shouldn't cost California anything and the benefits down the road are plenty. Look at Portugal, its been 10 years since they decriminalized drugs and only recently have they shut down a prison for lack of prisoners. It will also take a while to fine-tune this sort of system. And lets not minimize the social benefits that Forbes only briefly mentioned, the police will be allowed to refocus their attention on actual crime.

I agree with Mr. Arnold (I'll be honest, I have no idea how to spell his last name), that if we're going to start looking at legalizing things like marijuana then we should have debates and talk to countries and places that have already done this and see what has worked for them and ask what they think hasn't worked or needs improving.

In the end though I'm definitely for Proposition 19. Even if it gets passed and doesn't work out quite as well, its a step in the right direction. I'm Canadian but I'm sure some of you from other 1st world countries might share this sentiment. I'm sometimes proud of my country because it is one of freedom and progression. I desperately don't want my home to get left in the dust. California is the start, we're in an age of prohibition just like the early 1900s with alcohol. Eventually people see reason and act. California has started and I hope we follow. Its time to let at least this one thing, which is less harmful than alcohol, be regulated and people given the freedom to take weed if they want to.

Last observation. Portugal and Netherlands are one thing. Maybe they're the precedent for Europe, but what they do has lesser weight over here in N.A. If California legalizes pot then they will eventually be the precedent for our continent.


EDIT: Just thought I'd add this really good article from the UK's Guardian on Portugal's results of decriminalization. Its a bit long but worth the read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/se ... ugs-debate


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Sun 17 Oct , 2010 3:10 pm
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Attorney General Holder has announced his intent to continue enforcing federal drug laws in California. Although if he enforces the amounts legalized under 19, he will suffer a severe manpower shortage, this really does demonstrate something wrong with the Obama administration which promised in the primaries a drug policy that respected the states and then delivered increased raids on medical marijuana establishments.

Essentially this is a 10th amendment resolution. They're not just for the "right wing" anymore. :)

But no 10th amendment resolution has teeth yet. Someday there will be one with teeth that mandates arrest and trial for federal agents who enforce federal laws that violate state laws, such as if Prop 19 passes and the DEA goes after people who have Prop 19 permissible amounts. Such teeth would have to mandate that the police arrest and the DA file charges, and that the judge refuse to dismiss on supremacy grounds and the judge refuse to transfer the case to federal courts.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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TheMary
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Wed 20 Oct , 2010 9:11 pm
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Legalize marijuana regulate it like alcohol and tax the shit out of it like cigarettes.

As a migraine sufferer I'd like to see if marijuana is a better alternative to the mystery pill I take when my head feels like it's going to explode off of my shoulders. Not only that but rumor has it it's the best sleep aid EVER :heya: .

I had several friends with the weed card in California their symptoms ranged from insomia due to military trauma to good old anxiety.

Not only that but wouldn't you want it to be legal for those with chronic pain? Cancer, rehumatoid arthritis, fibromyaligia, and MS?

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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Fri 22 Oct , 2010 1:41 pm
 
 
I haven't been around on this part lately but this caught my eye. I will speak only from my experiences.

1) All drugs lead to crime. I don't care if you are talking meth, crack, pot, whatever. I can't tell you how many people we arrest for shoplifting/theft who say they were simply trying to fund their drug of choice.

2) Legalizing it won't reduce these offenses. We currently have a guy breaking into sheds and houses to feed his crack addiction. Why is he stealing? Because he can't hold a job due to his addiction which means no money for his crack so he has to fund it some how.

3) I have dealt with people on every kind of drug you can think of, yes, even pot, who have assaulted others

4) I've fought with a guy who was strung out on pot laced with PCP. At 4:00 in the morning he decided that he didn't like the glass in someone's front door so he broke it out. After I finally got him on the ground he began doing push-ups with me (over #200 at the time) and another officer on his back. It took seven people to get him under control and handcuffed. The guy might have weighed in at #145. He was a clear danger to everyone around him and himself.

5) The often overlooked issue with pot is that there is no way to have a consistent THC level. Some will be sky high (pun intended) while others will be almost non-existent. If it could be leveled out there might be a chance it would be legalized.

6) Pills are VERY tightly regulated and right now that's the biggest problem in most areas, RX abuse.

7) In our area most drug offenders (probably 99%) are not sentenced to jail or prison unless they are hauling or dealing large levels. We can't even arrest for possession of pot unless it is over 100g, which BTW is a lot of pot. I can arrest for the pipe but not the pot :scratch: .

8) Cigarettes and alcohol are legal but people are still stealing to get those things too. For some people, if they don't have the money for something then they will steal to get it. I don't see that changing even if drugs were legalized.

I have seen drugs, as well as alcohol, destroy people and their families. In my experience, I don't see that changing if drugs were legalized. Things might get better at first but then it would slide down again. I think, as Lali pointed out, a restructuring of the laws might be in order but each state must make decisions for themselves.

freddy


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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Fri 22 Oct , 2010 3:47 pm
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Legalization and regulation would help with some of the quality control issues, though.

Colorado legalized medical marijuana and though there are officially seven conditions you can get a card for, there are doctors who hand the cards out like candy because the pay is good and they don't have to deal with insurers. Apparently the dispensaries offer different strains of varying potency. Pick your favorite.

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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Fri 22 Oct , 2010 4:20 pm
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Freddy, I understand that as a police officer, you will always see the very worst effects that drugs have on people. I could never do what you do! But I also think that, on the whole, the effects of marijuana are less severe than those of alcohol, which is legal. As you say, alcoholics and smokers will sometimes do crazy things to get their drug of choice, and I'm sure the same would happen regardless of whether or not marijuana is legal. Still, the main reason I want marijuana to be legalized has to do with the vast majority of users who are not violent and use it recreationally (and are not addicted). I think it's absurd that people can be put in prison, eating up tax dollars and overcrowding the penal system, for something as small as carrying an ounce of pot. I also agree with River that quality control of marijuana would be greatly improved were it legalized. Look at alcohol--every bottle has the exact percentage of alcohol by volume so you always know how much you're drinking. I think the same could be true of THC content in marijuana if pot were regulated like alcohol, and legal pot sellers wouldn't want to jeopardize their business by putting crap like PCP in the marijuana they sell.

Will there still be abusers? Of course, just like there are people who abuse cigarettes and alcohol. Unfortunately, the police will have to deal with those people just like you guys have to do now (and citizens like myself will always be enormously grateful!). But, in general, I think a lot of good could come from legalizing marijuana--in regards to the prison system here, and the drug trade down in Mexico. For the record, I don't believe in legalizing what I consider to be "hard drugs"--cocaine, crack, heroin, meth, etc. Those ones are illegal for a reason, and because they are physiologically addictive and not as widely used as marijuana, the same effects would not happen in the event of their legalization.


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Drugs, Pg2 update on California's Proposition 19
Posted: Fri 22 Oct , 2010 9:27 pm
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It is true that, in pretty uncommon instances, people have stolen money to get alcohol or tobacco, but the statistics on that show it to be very rare.

There was a time when the crime involved in alcohol reached uncommonly high levels, and it was during prohibition.

One of the reasons there is so much illegal activity involved in funding a drug habit is because the drugs themselves are illegal. Drug use is a good way to get fired, and I'm not talking about drug use on the job. People who would sit back and toke in the evening, the way others chill with a beer with dinner, are on the road to unemployment because of their habit and drug screening that comes with way too many jobs these days.

Another reason there is so much illegal activity involved in funding a drug habit is because the drugs themselves are illegal. That drives up the prices, just as the price of booze was driven up during prohibition. If the prices were lower there would be less desperation to obtain funds.

Police generally see the worst aspects of drug use, because that is the nature of the job. It is similar to how doctors are largely in favor of gun control, because they don't see "the aggressor" or "the victim", and they never see the person whose life was saved by a gun, all they see is "the gun shot wound".

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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