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PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep , 2010 9:32 am 
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.

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I recently watched a BBC documentary called My Big Breasts and Me. It was a cute and educational look into the lives of three different women with disproportionately large breasts. They weren't portrayed as depressed or anything, just that it was rather obvious obstacle they had to deal with. Yet I still felt a tad gloomy afterward. These ladies were perfectly normal and healthy-looking, aside from their chests, and many women want big (or bigger) breasts, as do perhaps most men. But you're seeing people with these ideal features, and only hear about the strange looks they get, near impossibility of finding clothes that fit, and ways in which it inhibits their careers. :neutral:

This is not a double-edged sword like when you take a high-paying job that allows for no social time, or even a question of boundaries such as the paparazzi photographing a celeb; it is simply biology. Women have tits, yo. Some will be large, others small, sometimes both at once, and all will change throughout a lifetime anyway. So where did the idea come along that small-chested ladies should feel as ashamed about it as the well-endowed? This is where I get a little disheartened. It's like no matter what your body is and how it's presented, in the end, it's your gender you're being judged on.

Today I read about Ines Sainz, a sports reporter who was verbally harassed by players on the New York Jets team, because the media is mostly focusing on how the girl was dressed.

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Just kidding, this is her:

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I'm glad we're not having to discuss that this lead to a physical assault (because girls are also asking for it in those cases), but if catcalls only ever occurred in men's locker rooms when a woman dared to have a nice ass and/or wear tight jeans, then I wouldn't be complaining. It seems like women are in trouble whether they play nice or not. The media tried to create controversy earlier this summer when Lady GaGa flipped off the photographers taking pics of her at a Yankees game; granted, she was wearing a bikini and biker jacket, but everyone focused on her ~shitty attitude~ because I guess New Yorkers aren't used to something so scandalous as a middle finger. This situation with the NFL just makes me roll my eyes even more concerning the GaGa thing.

I know the worldwide media can be creepy, ill-informed, or completely falsified, and the internet is all that in addition to being anonymous, :P but even allowing for how real life inspires art (and vice versa), it doesn't always discount what people are whipping themselves into a frenzy over. I was so sick of hearing about Jessica Simpson wearing jeans that made her look chubby (journalism, y'all!) but it makes you think about how females are discussed in the news. Likewise, the Westboro Baptist church are obviously crazy, but one could bring up issues about religion and free speech if they wanted to. Or PETA - I know they're bullshit, but the laws regarding animal cruelty are clearly worth looking into. So, I may spend too much time reading about celebrities, :blackeye: but a lot of it relates to more grounded issues, even when not directly affected television, celebs, and other scapegoats. It don't have to be a headline before it's wrong as fuck.

Basically, I was hoping this thread could be for discussing people's own experiences with sexism, misogyny, and random things they've caught in the news. I'm not about to grow a 'stache and use "womyn" as a legitimate word, but we all have our own way of making a statement. And there is some shady shit out there. Let's talk?

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It always got me how actresses like Charlize Theron and Halle Berry were commended for taking the unglamorous roles they each won Oscars for, because they both said it was a huge struggle to be taken seriously in their careers since they were so attractive. Apparently, beauty keeps you employed but not respected, and if you can fake "ugly" (or just not wear makeup), well, they'll just throw the hardware your way. Not sure I see the point to that. Kind of silly when you can only find work if you're good-looking, but are just another piece of meat until you have the guts to... not play a model onscreen. Simultaneously, your body suddenly belongs to the public (hooray for nip slips and upskirts!), and you'll have to strip off or play an actual stripper to win any awards. But pose on a magazine in your undies and America deems you a slut who's negatively influencing the kiddies.

Wait... wut? I... but you... and they said... huh?

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*E*

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PostPosted: Fri 17 Sep , 2010 9:55 pm 
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I wish I had something to contribute to this thread, because I think it's an interesting one. Unfortunately, I feel just about written out at the moment with school. :(

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PostPosted: Sun 19 Sep , 2010 1:01 am 
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That was a really great post, *E*. And sadly it is all too true. :( Whether beautiful or plain, it strikes me that people will always find a way to judge women based on their appearances. When female celebrities gain a few pounds, there's an article about it. If they join a gym and get fit, there's an article about it. If they become too skinny, there's an article about it.


I was just at a volunteer orientation today, and one of the women there was a retired engineer. When she started working, she was the only female engineer at her job. Period. She said she used to get parking tickets every day for parking in the engineer's lot, because apparently the security guards looked at her and assumed she couldn't be an engineer. That was a few decades, of course, and luckily things have changed since then. But not entirely. I told her a story about my experience as a female in the sciences: I was an undergrad TA in a physics for engineers class. Not too many women, although there were a few. I worked with a male grad student TA who was constantly hanging over my shoulder, listening to my explanations of the material, and who would make offhand comments such as, "Are you sure that's right?" I doubt he even noticed he was doing it--but I sure did. There were male undergrad TAs as well, and he never exhibited similar behavior with them. I know he wasn't meaning to be misogynistic, but it struck me that if I had been male, he never would have acted that way around me. I'm not saying this to blame men, and I won't go burning my bra anytime soon. But it bothers me that even after all the hard work and progress that's gone into gender equality, things like this can still happen without anyone thinking anything of it.


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PostPosted: Mon 20 Sep , 2010 1:59 pm 
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These cases are just there to remind you the world is still full of idiots. It wouldn't do to forget this simple fact. Luckily a small percentage of idiots are receptive to being educated though I concede this can prove wearing over time.
The writers of articles that concentrate on female celebrities appearances, clothes sense and size tend to be women. I don't know if that makes it better or worse.

In some respect both men and women are ambivalent about their appearances. On the one hand, to have it mentioned and criticised constantly is a right pain in the arse. I can see that. But on the other, an occasional nod of appreciation is welcome and uplifting. How to find the balance?

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PostPosted: Mon 20 Sep , 2010 2:24 pm 
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I say, level the playing field.

Men ought to wear garments that make it possible for us to judge the size of their tackle.

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PostPosted: Mon 20 Sep , 2010 9:36 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Sep , 2010 10:24 pm 
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There's a prof in my former department. I shall refer to him as U. U is in his 50's I'd say, but very fit. Tall, lean, bicycling and skiing gazelle type. He bike commutes. Fine. He wears spandex when he commutes. Fine. When he's working, he wears khakis and a button-down shirt. Still fine. Sometimes he forgets his khakis and spend the day with wearing his button-down shirt and his spandex. Not fine. And he tends to sit with his legs spread apart. Even on days he forgets his khakis.

Fucking traumatizing.

It's a rite of passage for junior grad students. You come out for your interviews, you TA, you rotate through labs, you take class, you pick a lab, you take quals and somewhere along the way, at some point, before you take your quals, maybe while you're just a prospective out for the interview, you get traumatized by U's package. Men and women both. It is a common bond we all share. :help:

So, no, I do not want to see men dressed to show off their tackle. Especially since most men are NOT as fit as U.

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Sep , 2010 9:10 pm 
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Hey *E* first time poster love your show.

I can actually relate to your initial post *E* because I find myself falling into that trap that I have to look a certain way. Especially now. I was with someone for 3 years who loved me no matter how I looked and my weight did fluctuate while we were together, well it mainly went up, but anyway it didn't matter to him. He said 'baby I love you no matter how you look, and I'm attracted to you. Let's have sex!" and that was that. But now I'm alone again and I have moments of panic where my body protrudes and I can suck it in anymore and I feel like no one is ever gonna wanna hit this shit again. AND I'm getting older. What's a girl to do?! Ice cream!

It sucks that it's socially acceptable for men to be fat and ugly and it's not for women.

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PostPosted: Fri 24 Sep , 2010 12:17 am 

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TheMary wrote:
It sucks that it's socially acceptable for men to be fat and ugly and it's not for women.


Not sure if I want to try to untangle that, but let's just say that I don't agree :P

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PostPosted: Fri 24 Sep , 2010 4:21 am 
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L_M

I disagree, to a point, it's easier for a round overweight man to get a good looking woman. I see them all the time. Not so much with a overweight woman... Women tend to be less visual than men, so looks tend to not matter as much as personality to women. Men a visual beings and have been programmed to believe beauty is what the media tells them it is. I say programmed because 150 years ago, round fuller figured women were the sexy ones.


As for the way women dress and the judgements that happen, they happen. Its a horrid double standard, but how to change it...is something I have no idea how to do. I know I get more attention is form fitting tops that make my boobs stand out than I do if I am in a pair of sweats and a big t-shirt. Same body, different responses.

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PostPosted: Fri 24 Sep , 2010 4:30 am 
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Ara-anna wrote:
Men a visual beings and have been programmed to believe beauty is what the media tells them it is.


I saw a large survey a while ago that showed that men find just about half of women moderately nice looking or better.
Based on this, men's expectations for physical beauty seem pretty reasonable to me. I believe women's expectations are the one's that are distorted. No, you probably don't look like Jessica Alba - but you don't need to in order to be a nice looking person. Guys know that; I'm not so sure a lot of women do.


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PostPosted: Fri 24 Sep , 2010 5:28 am 

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yovargas wrote:
Ara-anna wrote:
Men a visual beings and have been programmed to believe beauty is what the media tells them it is.


I saw a large survey a while ago that showed that men find just about half of women moderately nice looking or better.


Per your post on HoF here.

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Nonetheless, all that tells us is that the average woman finds the average man less physically attractive than he finds her, which makes sense in the context of evolutionary biology. Women invest more in pregnancy and childbirth, and so must be more selective.

I was more interested in TheMary’s use of the term ‘socially acceptable’. On one hand, I don’t think it’s necessarily socially unacceptable to be fat and ugly. Attractive people are always more popular than unattractive ones, but plenty of ugly people have been elected to political office, put in charge of big companies, trusted as doctors and teachers, etc.

Still, it is true, as I said, that attractive people do have advantages in a range of areas in life. There’s plenty of research on that. I’m just not convinced that it affects women materially more than men. For example, as I argued previously on this board here, even while pressure has increased on women to conform to a certain body standard it has also increased on men.

Nonetheless, in the area of finding a partner, I’m willing to concede that unattractive women have it harder than unattractive men. But I don’t think that men have it easier in general. As with other primates, human females find human males who show signs of power and dominance attractive. Not only physical size, but popularity, wealth, power, and the like. Being fat may be a bigger barrier for a woman than a man when it comes to getting dates, but being poor is a bigger barrier for a man.

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PostPosted: Fri 24 Sep , 2010 1:50 pm 
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I don't play the visual effects game and haven't for almost 30 years. And yet, I'm happy. Feels like a "win" to me.

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PostPosted: Sat 25 Sep , 2010 6:59 am 
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Sure, it's been proven that women judge men less on physical appearance than vice versa but I would still disagree that large women have a harder time finding a partner than thinner ones. Just look around you at the women with heaving cleavages and muffin tops spilling out of their jeans...most of them have no trouble finding admirers. I think if you took two women, one a skinny model with a small bust and the other a larger woman with plenty of personality and ample proportions, the larger woman would receive the bulk of the attention...

I'm sure that self confidence is the one thing that makes a woman attractive no matter what her size

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PostPosted: Sat 25 Sep , 2010 12:58 pm 
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I have to agree about the personality and self confidence being attractive. I've seen plenty of pretty ugly women and men. People who are pretty to look at but the personality is overbearing and bitchy...so they are pretty ugly.

And I have seen average men and women who are not in the physical aspect of over the top pretty who have great personalities.

And I have seen ugly ugly people. The personality and the face match. I was just talking to one last night....I thought buddy thats a whole bunch of people to hate and he wondered why he wasn't finding ms Barbie to date.

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Oct , 2010 9:46 pm 
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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LM wrote:
I was more interested in TheMary’s use of the term ‘socially acceptable’. On one hand, I don’t think it’s necessarily socially unacceptable to be fat and ugly. Attractive people are always more popular than unattractive ones, but plenty of ugly people have been elected to political office, put in charge of big companies, trusted as doctors and teachers, etc.


My useage of the term came from personal experience of someone close to me who is absolutely abohored by fat people. Not even really fat people, but anyone who he thinks is fat. And if that person is really fat then OMFG he's like overcome with digust and shame that he had to see his or her fat body. And I know it's not just this person in my life, it's not a surprise to learn that his friends feel the same way, they are shallow pricks IMHO.

I can honestly say I've never dated based on looks. I've never looked at someone and said "That person is hot, I need them on my team." Do I find the people I've dated attractive, yeah sure, but usually I'm more attracted to their sense of humor and then I start seeing their physical attributes. My first boyfriend had horrendous acne and I was oblivious! Meh.

nienna wrote:
I think if you took two women, one a skinny model with a small bust and the other a larger woman with plenty of personality and ample proportions, the larger woman would receive the bulk of the attention...


Yes the curvacious woman will get the bulk of the attention, but at the end of the night the skinny bitch will be asked to go home with someone. Not that that should be a goal in life, but I consider myself that larger woman with the personality and being looked over because I carry some extra weight sucks. I'm the one who ends up using my personality to get my skinny friend hooked up, and I know I'm just as cute as my friend. And yet, the fat dudes with the pot belly and the bad hair walk around like GQ models, and it's funny to me that they don't see themselves as inferior product like I would be considered to them.

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct , 2010 12:03 am 
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T_M

Those boys who are that shallow are not men. period. and if they are like that, there is no reason for anyone but an equally shallow twits to date them. As men get older and perhaps more mature they start to value women for more than their boob and hip sizes, or the length of hair, or the color of hair, or dress size. Those are the single men you want to find, and they are not at the clubs or hanging out with Barbie, or the men who look for Barbie. They are out there, very hard to find, but they are there. ;)

I agree with the overweight men though, they are not judged as harshly as even slightly chubby woman. And women will date them, where as an overweight woman is going to have a much harder time of it. People like to say men are not that judgemental, but yes they are.

When I was younger I was dated because of my looks and body, I dated and played around with men, it was easy. Like shooting fish in a barrel, good looking men, not good looking men all of them. As I got older and had kids my body changed and not for the better. After my divorce my self esteem dropped because I never had to establish my own worth without the looks (my ex called me his trophy wife), and as a result my dating habits changed dramatically and I compromised who I was.

Then I woke up. I had to get healthy in mind and body. I started working out, eating a whole lot different due to medical issues and stopped dating for a long time. I am now in the best shape I have been in a long time, but my view of the world has changed a great deal. I don't date men who only see me as pretty, they are not what I am looking for and believe me the vast majority of men who asked are like that. If they say I am pretty within the first meeting, there will not be a second. I guess I have gotten to the point that if a man tells me I am the most amazing creature he has ever met with in a short amount of time it throws up too many red flags....how can he know that just by looking at me and talking to me a few times? That's why I say any man or even woman who is dating someone solely because of looks isn't really that good of a catch and is very self centered...and who needs that.

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct , 2010 2:04 pm 
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Ara wrote:
I guess I have gotten to the point that if a man tells me I am the most amazing creature he has ever met with in a short amount of time it throws up too many red flags....how can he know that just by looking at me and talking to me a few times?


Hey! That's not fair! What if he's very empathic and can see the goodness of your soul right away?

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PostPosted: Sat 06 Nov , 2010 3:36 am 
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.

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Apologies for not returning to this thread sooner; I was able to concentrate on the first few posts though! Will reply soon.

For the moment, I just wanted to add an article I read about a boy who dressed up as a Scooby Doo character for Halloween: http://nerdyapplebottom.com/2010/11/02/my-son-is-gay/ Makes me wonder if it's not the ~being gay~ part that people get so offended by, so much as taking on female characteristics. You can't do that, they're an inferior gender! ;)

Ties in nicely with the It Gets Better project, as I noticed many submissions point out the learned behavior of gay prejudice. If children only see a Halloween costume, and it's parents dropping their monocles over a perceived social faux pas, then no bloody wonder where bullying starts.

I just fear that people will focus more on political correctness than truly analyzing their thoughts and actions. Like that Arkansas teacher who is homosexuals' no. 1 fan!!1 going on CNN saying he would "never support suicide". Sucks to get called out in front of the country for shit you wrote on facebook, but dang... look at your life, McCance. Just look at it.




*E*

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan , 2011 9:45 am 
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I've been reading a bit about slut-shaming lately. The movie "Easy A" got me thinking about it. I don't remember this happening when I was in high school or in college, but maybe it just wasn't in the culture of the people I hung out with.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com ... t-shaming/

http://feministcampus.blogspot.com/2009 ... jokes.html

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/11 ... itter.html

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/10 ... -over.html

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/03 ... ds-to.html

The language and behavior around it is pretty intense and the connection between the age thing of a woman either being a madonna or a whore is obvious. The whole idea that a woman can only be sexual if she is in love with someone who loves her back is rather horrifying. To be honest, I'm still taking it all in and don't feel like I can make a properly thoughtful comment on it at the moment, but I thought I would post about it to see what others thought.

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