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 Post subject: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 3:07 am 
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42852700/ns ... tral_asia/

He's dead.

It's strange. Very strange.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 4:21 am 
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Strange is exactly how I'd put it. I'm a little disgusted that people seem to be celebrating, but I suppose there're a lot of emotions flying around the place at the moment.

I'm disappointed that he could not have been given a fair trial.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 4:46 am 
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I'm glad he's been killed and glad he was killed by Americans. But I do wonder why it took 10 years, and I wonder what the f**king hell it had to do with Iraq.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 5:09 am 
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For the first, no idea why it took so long. I suspect we'll find out in the days and weeks ahead and I suspect that there will be embarrassments a-plenty as the full story unwinds.

For the second, nothing. There was no connection between the Iraqi government and the events on 9/11/01. The propaganists can't change that, no matter how hard they try.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 9:42 am 
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Riverthalos wrote:
For the first, no idea why it took so long. I suspect we'll find out in the days and weeks ahead and I suspect that there will be embarrassments a-plenty as the full story unwinds.

Doubt it. The policy seems to be to avoid embarrassments at all costs. I'd be surprised if we find anything out.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 12:50 pm 
This will likely be my only post on the matter. While I am relieved that the man is dead, I don't rejoice at another person's death. Even one as evil as that man was. We will need to be vigilant for many years to come because the terrorists we are dealing with are patient and have proven this time and time again.

Finally, if President Obama uses this as an election tool then he should be ashamed. He was a part of it yes, but he only gave the go ahead. It was men and women, far below him in the chain of command, that gathered the information, planned the strike, and completed the task. These are the men and women who need to be celebrated right now, although they should remain nameless as I am sure there is already a fatwah issued for each of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 12:53 pm 
river, as to why it took so long. If someone wants to hide they will. We have a guy we were looking for for two weeks before we found him. We would get tips and be just behind him. This was a guy who had no money and a handful of friends. Bin Laden had money and friends who would die for him, that's why.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 1:24 pm 
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I have to wonder if this is why Patreaus was moved into CIA.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 1:28 pm 
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People are celebrating in the streets? Ugghhhh. That's just creepy. If you put down a rabid dog, you don't celebrate. It's just an ugly necessity.

My main reaction is just, "Good. It's about time."

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Last edited by MariaHobbit on Mon 02 May , 2011 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 1:28 pm 
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I feel much the same way as Freddy. I am not rejoicing that he's dead, but I can't say that I'm sorry that he is dead either. So many people have died because of him. A trial was an interesting thought, Crucifer, but I would've been very surprised if it had ever developed. He fully and freely claimed responsibility for 9/11 and other actions that resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths. Therefore, we were at war with him and with Al-qaeda. Besides, once he was found, it seems like the Navy SEALS got into a fire fight with those protecting him. It doesn't seem like taking Osama alive was an option.

I do think it's strange that they buried his body at sea.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 2:10 pm 
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Feredir wrote:

Finally, if President Obama uses this as an election tool then he should be ashamed. He was a part of it yes, but he only gave the go ahead. It was men and women, far below him in the chain of command, that gathered the information, planned the strike, and completed the task. These are the men and women who need to be celebrated right now, although they should remain nameless as I am sure there is already a fatwah issued for each of them.

d r


No matter who was president when the deed was done, it would be used as an election tool. I think you will find that Mr. Obama will not "trumpet" the event, but how on earth can it be ignored by anyone for any reason?

I don't think anyone should be "celebrated". Some people are trained to plan and carry out these operations. In this case, it seems like they did the "right thing" in that they "got" a man we mostly recognized as a criminal. In the past, they've assassinated other people, actions that were and are denied but are rightfully condemned.

It was never realistic to talk about bringing bin Laden to trial. This is the best end.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 2:28 pm 
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Why bin Lande was buried at sea:
Quote:
After bin Laden was killed in a raid by U.S. forces in Pakistan, senior administration officials said the body would be handled according to Islamic practice and tradition. That practice calls for the body to be buried within 24 hours, the official said. Finding a country willing to accept the remains of the world's most wanted terrorist would have been difficult, the official said. So the U.S. decided to bury him at sea.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 4:13 pm 
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I was glad that the US military decided to respectfully bury his body. And I myself did not celebrate, but I can understand why so many did and I am not terribly bothered by it. I think that most people were celebrating the US in general rather than his actual death.


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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 4:19 pm 
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I kinda went "huh?" when I heard they buried him at sea but after I took a minute to think about it, it really seems like the smartest move available.

clicky

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 7:06 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 7:23 pm 
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LalaithUrwen wrote:
I A trial was an interesting thought, Crucifer, but I would've been very surprised if it had ever developed. He fully and freely claimed responsibility for 9/11 and other actions that resulted in thousands upon thousands of deaths. Therefore, we were at war with him and with Al-qaeda.


True. So he should have been tried as a war criminal. For crimes against humanity. Anything. But the right to trial is what keeps humanity human. Free admission of responsibility for 9/11 etc. only means an automatic plea of guilty. But he should have been tried.

Quote:
Besides, once he was found, it seems like the Navy SEALS got into a fire fight with those protecting him. It doesn't seem like taking Osama alive was an option.


Of course, if taking him alive wasn't an option, then that's that and there's nothing that could have been done. I imagine that it is highly likely that taking him alive was not an option. But it's still disappointing that the world could not say 'for this, you deserve this punishment', because, as I say, the right to trial is what keeps us human and differentiates us from barbarians.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 7:34 pm 
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I fully agree with crucifer.

I think a trial would have been the only option with dignity, putting the values of democracy clearly above others.

Even Eichmann got a trial...

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Mon 02 May , 2011 9:47 pm 
A song outlasts a dynasty.
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Nin wrote:
Even Eichmann got a trial...


Precisely. I couldn't think of his name earlier. And Hitler and Himmler would have been tried, had they not committed suicide.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Tue 03 May , 2011 12:17 am 
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I agree with the sentiment, but in reality taking him to the US and having a trial would have been such huge, huge circus. It's better as it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Osama bin Laden
PostPosted: Tue 03 May , 2011 1:12 am 
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An interesting editorial on the matter. Bin Laden may not have lost after all:

The Devil likely died happy

Quote:
But when bin Laden directed those airplanes at civilians ten years ago, he stole a lot more from this nation than the lives of 3,000 of her citizens.

He taught this country the consequences of operating an open, free society. Literally, he showed Americans the price of their liberty, how many of their principles they'd be willing to cast aside, and how quickly they would do it.

In other words, bin Laden showed American exceptionalists how unexceptionally they behave when faced with horrors most older nations have endured.

Beginning the day after the attacks, the United States became a meaner, more paranoid, more impoverished place.


Quote:
Thousands of people were locked up on flimsy pretexts and held for months without trial. Muslims learned to live with hard stares and suspicion. They were pulled off flights for the sin of having prayed publicly. Gradually, the Muslim world began to believe it was at war.

One can only imagine bin Laden's delight.

Congress, its knees jerking, passed the grotesquely named Patriot Act, removing civil liberties that took centuries to earn. America's famous dedication to individual rights shriveled in the sudden heat. National security, rather than life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness became the fundamental determinant.


Quote:
Americans surrendered to ever more intrusive searches and probes at airports, carried out largely to create the illusion they were being protected.


Quote:
Habeas corpus was ignored; the White House arrogated to itself the power to pronounce an American citizen an "enemy combatant," stripped of legal rights or due process. Government secrecy and classification of information expanded exponentially.

At the president's direction, White House lawyers concocted specious legal arguments allowing government agents to practise torture. They also began kidnapping people off foreign streets, sometimes the wrong people altogether, and shipping them off to regimes that didn't bother at all with legal opinions.


Quote:
And then there of course there was the cost. Setting aside the trillions expended in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have bin Laden to thank for a lot of today’s economic misery.

When the economy swooned after 9/11, policymakers responded with near-zero interest rates. Bush told the nation to go shopping, and everyone whipped out a credit card.


By and large, I agree with most of the article. Bin Laden has been largely irrelevant for years. He struck his coup in 2001, and then just had to sit back and let the U.S. government finish the work themselves. Not that he should have escaped justice for the crimes he committed that day, but all the dancing and rejoicing are misplaced. If you really want to have cause to celebrate, get to work on undoing the madness of the last ten years, and return to the relative sanity of September 10.

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