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 Post subject: 2016 Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 12:32 am 
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[RANGER NOTE] THIS IS NOT THE ORIGINAL TITLE OF THE THREAD. THIS THREAD TITLE WAS NOT SELECTED BY CENEDRIL_GILDINAUR.[/RANGER NOTE]

Well, this election is finally over.

If there are any Trump supporters out there, congrats on your victory.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Wed 24 May , 2017 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 1:16 am 
A green apple painted red
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Or if you voted for a third party candidate, congratulations, it's your victory, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 3:18 am 
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I'm pretty sure my vote for Gary Johnson is not the reason Trump won.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 4:19 am 
A green apple painted red
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You are in CA, IIRC? Probably not.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 2:18 pm 

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Quote:
Or if you voted for a third party candidate, congratulations, it's your victory, too.


It seems quite unfair to vilify the people who could not bring themselves to vote for Hillary Clinton, or simply agreed more with Jill Stein, Gary Johnson et al, instead of supporting the person you chose, Frelga. That's what a democracy is - everyone votes as they like, and the rest of us have to accept that choice, even if we don't agree with it.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around: Hilary Clinton herself and the Democratic National Committee; the Republican party that rallied around Trump simply because he was Republican, even if they didn't like what he was saying; the media that prioritized their own ratings and gave Trump plenty of free publicity instead of presenting a true, focused, critical discussion of the actual issues (and occasionally blew his off-the-cuff statements out of proportion, to the point where even I rolled my eyes at the obvious bias); the current U.S. culture where personalities seem to matter more than substance.

Trump and the Republicans have won, and bitter words won't heal the divisions in this country or reduce the intolerance I see on both sides - liberals as well as conservatives. And personally, I'm not going to yell "the sky is falling" until I actually see what Trump does in office. (though I reserve the right to do it then. :) ). I would have accorded Clinton the same courtesy, despite thinking that she's a political weathervane that blows in whatever direction will get her elected, and too much of a hawk and a friend to corporations and lobbyists - though I did think her the lesser of two evils, and thought she might have made an OK president in the end.

btw, thanks C_G for being gracious. Though I don't like or support Trump, I thought he was also surprisingly gracious in his acceptance speech.

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That no river is a river which does not flow.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 2:55 pm 
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I said congratulations, is that unfair? Was that not an outcome third-party voters, particularly in swing states (like I said, it probably didn't matter in California) are happy with?

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 3:57 pm 
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Frelga wrote:
I said congratulations, is that unfair? Was that not an outcome third-party voters, particularly in swing states (like I said, it probably didn't matter in California) are happy with?


Third party voters aren't happy with Trump or Clinton, so having Trump or Clinton win is not an outcome we're happy with. As I saw many times on Facebook "I'm worried about this election, I'm worried that someone will win."

I understand people being unhappy that their team lost, but blaming 3rd parties is really just lashing out.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 4:22 pm 
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All the third party voters in Missouri wouldn't have brought Clinton's tally up to Trump's. It doesn't mean they are happy with the result.


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 8:54 pm 
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They would have in Florida, Wisconsin (just the Stein voters, in fact), and Pennsylvania. By a lot. Which would have been more than enough for Clinton to win.

So, again, congratulations.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 9:00 pm 
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The outcome is still not what they wanted, so I'm not sure why congratulations are in order :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov , 2016 10:25 pm 

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Not to mention that Clinton supporters are assuming that third party voters would have voted for her if third parties didn't exist. I wouldn't be surprised if some Johnson voters were Republicans who didn't like Trump. And I'm sure there are also Republicans who are environmentalists, and could have gone for Jill Stein for the same reason.

Right now, there seems to be a lot of "blame the third party voters for Trump's victory" vitriol on social media. I think it would be more profitable for people who genuinely did like Clinton to ask themselves: what did our campaign do wrong, and how can we reach out to those disaffected voters and win next time? Bitterly saying "it's all your fault" isn't going to win the Democratic party any friends. Or change the results, or do anything useful that I can see.


I still find myself somewhat curious what Trump will actually do, now that the "winning" part is over and he has to settle down to governing. Not that we have any choice...
He supposedly supports Social Security (and is at odds with Republicans on that) and has expressed support for 6 weeks' paid maternal leave for all. Not exactly positions I'd expect from his ugly demagogue persona during the elections.

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It is this we learn after so many failures,
The building of castles in sand, of queens in snow,
That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

- Louis MacNeice, Autumn Journal


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov , 2016 12:39 am 
A green apple painted red
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Jude wrote:
The outcome is still not what they wanted, so I'm not sure why congratulations are in order :scratch:

Because the outcome they wanted was not an option in this reality. Either Trump or Clinton were going to be elected, and by not voting for Clinton third-party voters helped bring Trump's presidency about. I have to assume that it's an acceptable outcome for them.

Election is not a performance art or a form of self-expression. It's about real consequences in real world. Here we are.

ETA: I am talking about swing states here.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov , 2016 12:53 am 
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Well, if a party were to present a candidate worth crossing party lines for, instead of merely saying the alternate is horrible, then that would encourage the third party voters to cross party lines.

For Hillary to collect these third party votes, she needs to make a positive argument about why she is good enough to collect third party votes, not just argue how bad the alternative is. We agree the alternative is bad, which is why we didn't vote for the alternative.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov , 2016 2:50 am 
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Well, then, it was an acceptable outcome and what is this argument even about?

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov , 2016 3:17 am 
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Because it isn't the case that 3rd party voters consider Trump an acceptable outcome, but instead undifferentiably unacceptable from the alternative.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov , 2016 5:33 pm 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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And, yet, as a person who was sorely tempted to vote for a third-party candidate, I can admit that at least a small part of the attraction to that was that I could then stand back when whichever main party candidate got elected and say, "Well, this wasn't what I wanted, so I'm morally in the clear. When we're fucked, it's not my fault. I didn't like EITHER candidate."

In the end, I decided that I, personally, couldn't choose to do what made me feel the best, so I had to do what at least made me feel okay, knowing that it was a foregone conclusion that either Clinton or Trump was going to win. There was no third option out there. Choosing not to vote at all didn't feel right to me either. Again, either Trump or Clinton was going to win, and I needed to decide which of the two of those would be the better choice.

I sincerely hope that Trump does a lot better than I think he will. I hope he settles down and matures and grows in his character. As a Christian, I pray for him. (Ugh. That is going to feel weird when they say it in church!) But yeah. It needs to be done.

Emotions are high right now. I was a hot mess the day after and still kind of am. It's not that I loved Clinton, but Trump is dangerous, imo. So here's hoping our government's checks and balances somehow still manage to work even though Republicans control both the executive and legislative branches of our government. Eight years ago or so, I would've been pretty happy about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov , 2016 9:26 pm 

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It looks like Trump is starting to pick his Cabinet. I don't expect everyone to feel the same about these choices (I find some of them pretty depressing, though I don't know much about others), but does anyone really think Sarah Palin would make a good Secretary of the Interior?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/305354-buzzfeed-obtains-preliminary-list-of-trump-cabinet-picks

I just had to add this link where a scientist talks about Palin wanting to be Secretary of Energy:http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/09/09/sarah-palin-as-secretary-of-energy-under-donald-trump/#2d094e05792e

Quote:
And it just so happens that Sarah Palin wants to be Secretary of Energy.

“I think a lot about the Department of Energy because energy is my baby,” says Palin. “Oil, gas, minerals, those things God has dumped on this part of the earth for mankind’s use instead of us relying on unfriendly foreign nations for us to import their resources” (CNN).

... “If I were in charge of that, it would be a short-term job, but it would be really great to have someone who knows energy and is pro-responsible development to be in charge,” said Palin

... But it’s really cute that Palin thinks the United States Department of Energy has much to do with energy, like those mineral things.

... The United States Department of Energy is hardly about energy at all, at least not in the electricity sense. DOE is all about nuclear – nuclear weapons and nuclear waste. Only a little bit of energy and mainly as research, not production...

And nuclear is one of those things that you actually need to know well, or you will do stupid things.



Possibly a little less dogmatic about healthcare than he was during the campaign.
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/305630-trump-willing-to-keep-parts-of-obamacare

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It is this we learn after so many failures,
The building of castles in sand, of queens in snow,
That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

- Louis MacNeice, Autumn Journal


Last edited by aninkling on Fri 11 Nov , 2016 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov , 2016 10:04 pm 
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Sarah "Drill, baby, drill" Palin in charge of National Parks? As inspired a choice as Ben "Pyramids as grain storage" Carson for Secretary of Education.

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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov , 2016 10:12 pm 

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Maybe she thinks Secretary of the Interior has to with, like, decorating. (see link I added while you were commenting)

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It is this we learn after so many failures,
The building of castles in sand, of queens in snow,
That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

- Louis MacNeice, Autumn Journal


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 Post subject: Re: Election
PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov , 2016 4:30 am 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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God help us all. That woman is a moron! :bang:

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