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PostPosted: Tue 13 Feb , 2018 2:38 pm 
A green apple painted red
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Well, there's a reason I dislike Wagner.

Related - I just saw that Mel Gibson supposedly declined a Marvel role, and I went full Gospel, "Thank you, Lord!" I don't want that asshole in my favorite movie verse.

Griffy, another excellent post.

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PostPosted: Wed 14 Feb , 2018 12:46 am 
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It is a provocative moment for the art world, as the public debate about separating creative output from personal conduct moves from popular culture into the realm of major visual artists from different eras and the institutions that have long collected and exhibited their pieces.


I have long been a proponent of separating art from artist. I understand if on a personal level many people are unwilling or unable to do that but do get frustrated in cases like this where some people insist that because they can't or won't, nobody should.


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PostPosted: Thu 15 Feb , 2018 10:06 am 
of Vinyamar
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Alatar wrote:
Coincidentally, this popped up in my Tech feed today about the #NotNolan campaign (which I confess I was previously unaware of). I think it's a pretty balanced article and I'd be curious to see what others, and particularly Griffy, think of this one.

https://kotaku.com/sex-pong-and-pioneer ... 1822930057


Anyone?

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 1:42 am 
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Alatar wrote:
Alatar wrote:
Coincidentally, this popped up in my Tech feed today about the #NotNolan campaign (which I confess I was previously unaware of). I think it's a pretty balanced article and I'd be curious to see what others, and particularly Griffy, think of this one.

https://kotaku.com/sex-pong-and-pioneer ... 1822930057


Anyone?

This weekend, hopefully. Have managed to read the article in bits and pieces there past couple days. So hope to be able to reply, along with a reply to posts made in this thread since mine. I am extraordinarily busy at work; got a household to support and very little time to myself.

Did notice this on the ( South African ) news: https://www.news24.com/World/News/stanf ... t-20180215

Related to an example I mentioned in my previous post.

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 3:16 am 
A green apple painted red
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Alatar wrote:
Alatar wrote:
Coincidentally, this popped up in my Tech feed today about the #NotNolan campaign (which I confess I was previously unaware of). I think it's a pretty balanced article and I'd be curious to see what others, and particularly Griffy, think of this one.

https://kotaku.com/sex-pong-and-pioneer ... 1822930057


Anyone?
My reading list is kind of long already, but if you want to share what you consider salient points, I promise to give them the appropriate consideration.

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 9:56 am 
of Vinyamar
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I kinda don't want to add my own bias to your reading if I can avoid it. But if you prefer a bullet list of some key points I can probably do that?

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 2:00 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
I'd be curious to see what others, and particularly Griffy, think of this one.
https://kotaku.com/sex-pong-and-pioneer ... 1822930057

In general, I think actions that occurred in the past need to be judged by the context in which they occurred. Based on what I read in the article, it sounds like Atari's culture was actually rather empowering for the women who worked there, especially compared with the cultural norms that existed in American business at the time (as a few of the women attest to learning after they left Atari for other companies). Of course, I wasn't there and I could be very wrong. Nevertheless, there is a certain ex post facto feel to the whole kerfuffle, as with many others that have simmered up recently. It reminds me a little of the tendency to tear down notable figures who made major contributions to American history because they also owned slaves, or had some connection to the slave trade. Just like everyone else did at the time. If one continues too far down that path, it leads to a situation where the only people we can admire are the ones who didn't do anything at all.

Of course, we're talking about denying an award here, not putting a man in jail or taking away his job or house.


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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 2:06 pm 
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I had actually read that article before you had posted it, Al.

The gist of it is that the founder of Atari was getting nominated for an award for his contributions to the games industry or somesuch. But then a Twitter campaign started against him because he had often talk about how Atari at the time was a bit of a wild place with sex and drugs and stuff. The Twitter campaign felt that it was inappropriate to honor a guy known for bragging about his hot secretaries and things like that, especially right now during the MeToo movement. But in the article, the writer has interviewed multiple women who worked at Atari at the time and the ones interviewed all say that they loved working there, that they have fond memories of it, and that they did not feel harassed or ever pressured into sex. It also points out that Atari actually had more women than most tech companies in important positions like marketing and research.

My general stance on this is much the same as what I said about the Chuck Close case - I have no problem separating a person from their work. Honoring a person's work is not the same as honoring every single thing that person has ever done. Regardless of whether you approve of his sexual attitudes are not, his work was important in the field and should be recognized as such. If we only go about honoring the work of saints, then we will never honor anyone since I have yet to meet one of those.


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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 6:34 pm 
A green apple painted red
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My reading list hasn't gotten any shorter, so I'm just going to take yov's word for the article. Sure, whatever, give the man an award.

Let me just ask our male posters, how often your description of a workplace would include the words, "well I've never been harassed or pressed for sex." I realize that this was the subject of the article, but would that question ever be even asked of a man?

I think it's only fair to acknowledge the contribution of an individual, but also the harm they have done to others, and judge them on the balance.

I'll take it further - I am more likely to be lenient towards the dead. With the living, we are still rewarding them, personally, for their actions, both the good and the harmful. And so, if they are an abuser, a racist, if their success came at the cost of destroying lives and making it impossible for talented people to make their own contribution, then I don't want to contribute to any rewards they receive in life.

See also, Bill Crosby.

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 7:29 pm 
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Atari sounds like it was a fun place to work.
The only job I could get at the end of the 70's was as a nurse's aide. Bletch! Worst job in the world for a young teen! I'd have jumped at the opportunity of Atari, if it had been available.


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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 7:43 pm 
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Frelga wrote:
Let me just ask our male posters, how often your description of a workplace would include the words, "well I've never been harassed or pressed for sex." I realize that this was the subject of the article, but would that question ever be even asked of a man?

Not until now :), but if anyone ever had, the answer would be yes. I've never been pressured for sex, but I have absolutely been on the receiving end of behavior that would count as sexual harassment if the genders were reversed, when I was young and had no power or status in the companies in question and worked with women who did.

That said, I don't really think any of it was that big of a deal and I certainly wasn't damaged by it. And I understand it doesn't compare to the average level of harassment received by the average woman over her lifetime.


Last edited by Dave_LF on Fri 16 Feb , 2018 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Feb , 2018 9:40 pm 

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I'm starting to feel under-appreciated, if the average woman is supposed to be harassed much more than that. I protest! ;)

I've never been sexually harassed or pressed for sex at my work, in nearly 40 years. I've had the occasional compliment that meant absolutely nothing except "you look nice today" and was never intended to go anywhere. There was one colleague who would have been interested in dating - but nothing changed between us when I wasn't. And one person who wanted to date me but waited until he was no longer in a position of authority over me before he asked. Even though it was only nominal authority, he was very conscious of not taking advantage.

It's possible I've been lucky and just associated with decent men. It also seems to me that the harassers usually go after the young, who are not yet self-confident. My first job, at 16, was in a family-owned restaurant where the owners were very protective and would have strung up any male who harassed their young women employees. And our "regulars" probably would have done the same to a customer who was out of line - they treated us as they would their own daughters. (And this was in a major metropolitan area, not some small town.)

The only harassment I've ever received was from strangers or near-strangers in public - but they were the sort of creeps who get around - they probably hit on dozens of young women, or more, each year. Unfortunately, no MeToo movement will ever get rid of that sort of lowlife. They already know perfectly well that it's wrong and don't care.

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PostPosted: Sun 18 Feb , 2018 1:12 am 
A green apple painted red
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This'll take me a couple posts on the phone and I won't get to the keyboard until late (I'm with the FIL today), so I'll start with the easy one.

I knew exactly why I didn't experience much harassment at work even as a young woman. It's because I spent my career at places where women were part of management and made hiring decisions.

Even before I became a manager myself, I was on the interview panels. The one time the candidate gave me a bad vibe, I put my foot down and told my male boss that if he hired the guy, I'd quit. We did hire a jerk once (same boss's doing, he really just wanted to be done with hiring), but he wasn't a sexist jerk. Thing is, if I weren't on the panel, they'd have hired the creepy guy.

Then we hit a spell when the chief (male) tried to do a redesign and we ended up with the upper management being all middle aged white men. Suddenly, entry level positions were being filled with attractive young women. I didn't think anything at the time - I was young myself, and secure about my appearance, but in retrospect there was a pattern. It took about six months until one of them filed a suit for harassment. It may have been a coincidence that a series of bad calls led to some disastrous results only a few years later.

And before someone takes a whip to that poor dead horse again, I want to be quite clear that this was not about some existential evilness intrinsic to All Men. It was about what happens when one group is used to having all the power, and how the fix is to diffuse the power across a more diverse population.

I am quite certain that in a fictional universe where women have the kind of monopoly on economic and hence political power that men still do in the real world, men would be subject to a similar level of abuse that women are in reality. But that's another post.

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PostPosted: Mon 19 Feb , 2018 7:40 pm 
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I've never been sexually harassed in the workplace, either. Not even the time I spent on active duty in the Army.

I was certainly harassed in Basic Training, but that wasn't personal and it wasn't sexual.


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Feb , 2018 10:34 am 
of Vinyamar
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Weird. I know I wrote a response here a couple of days back, but its gone now. Maybe I only hit Preview. Dammit.

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PostPosted: Thu 22 Feb , 2018 4:11 am 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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:(

And I was hoping to have some time this past weekend at work, but that did NOT happen. :suspicious:

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb , 2018 11:09 pm 

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Like many people, I had an automatic "what a stupid idea" knee-jerk reaction to the idea of arming teachers. The idea of a teacher with a concealed weapon in a classroom full of kids, especially teenagers testing their limits, sounded like a recipe for disaster.

But I admit I might have to re-think this idea, if done sensibly and not wild-west style. An editorial from the Atlantic:
http://thehill.com/opinion/education/375723-arming-teachers-ask-japan
Quote:
Arming teachers? Ask Japan

Quote:
Among potential reforms floated following the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, is the controversial idea of arming teachers in America’s schools. The proposal generates fierce debate, with critics balking at the idea of turning educators into ad hoc first responders in the event of a shooting. But the idea of arming teachers is not entirely far-fetched. It has been successfully implemented, in a non-firearm capacity, outside the United States.

...In Japan, the sasumata man-catchers and bokken swords described above are secured within the school staffroom, not classrooms. A similar approach in the United States might have firearms securely stored in the school’s administrative and departmental offices — centrally located and accessible only to those authorized, but not kept in classrooms.

A military person suggested something similar on a forum. Apparently, submarines are "gun-free zones" yet everyone can be armed if necessary, from guns kept in secure lockers.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb , 2018 11:34 pm 
A green apple painted red
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I didn't have a knee-jerk reaction. I gave the idea some logical thought and it just looked worse with every second.

And so does that article. The difference between defending against a knife and a semi-automatic gun is so fundamental that there is no parallel.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar , 2018 2:34 pm 

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The parallel, of course, is that, in both cases, weapons are not available in classrooms or routinely carried by teachers, but available within a few minutes in a locked, secure location on the premises if needed.

You can still have valid concerns about this idea - for instance, you'd have to work out things like how to identify an armed teacher to law enforcement responders, and also decide whether there is more risk to having more guns in this situation vs. the advantages. But I have to say that, if I were a teacher hiding with a classroom full of kids, with a gunman potentially coming through the closed door, I'd prefer to have a gun as a last ditch defense, over having nothing at all - or hoping that somehow the security guard the school hired will appear in the hallway and win a battle with a well-armed shooter. And I say that as someone who has never liked guns or wanted to own one.

And some states already seem to be giving permission to teachers to carry concealed weapons. Wouldn't it make more sense to at least consider authorizing a single reasonable plan that has a higher safety margin, for states that want to allow teachers to be armed? Frankly, both sides demonizing the other and falling back to their entrenched positions doesn't seem to be working terribly well.

meh. I was going to stay away from this thread and I got sucked back in again.

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The building of castles in sand, of queens in snow,
That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

- Louis MacNeice, Autumn Journal


Trump Warns That Democrats Would Drag Nation Back to Days of Tolerance and Decorum


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Oct , 2018 8:28 pm 

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https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/413813-cultural-appropriation-turns-halloween-into-a-nightmare
Quote:
Cultural appropriation turns Halloween into a nightmare

by Jonathan Turley, Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University.
Quote:
“Cultural appropriation” has become a common term on campuses and is receiving broader meaning with each passing year. In Utah, a high school student was denounced for wearing a Chinese dress to her prom. White students wearing hoop earrings or dreadlocks have been denounced, while there have been protests over serving sushi at Oberlin College, holding yoga classes at the University of Ottawa or having a “Mexican food night” at Clemson University. The reason behind such limitless forms of cultural appropriation is its limitless meaning. Fordham University law professor Susan Scafidi has defined the term as encompassing the “unauthorized use of another culture’s dance, dress, music, language, folklore, cuisine, traditional medicine, religious symbols” and more.

That makes Halloween a nightmarish orgy of cultural appropriation. There are clearly racist costumes that most of us join in denouncing, such as blackface or other raw portrayals. However, the cultural appropriation movement opposes any depiction of another culture. Indeed, what constitutes a social norm can be hard to discern. A New York Times column gave a tortured account of whether parents could allow their children to dress as Black Panther. The article included advice on sitting down with kids to discuss racial implications of their choices and, as Texas Woman’s University professor Brigitte Vittrup warned, “by not mentioning it, by not talking about it, we’re essentially preserving the status quo.”


IMO, we're letting the purveyors of outrage drive the discourse. And well-meaning people are questioning their own common sense and going along with it instead of laughing at them.

But I also roll my eyes at the idea that all skin-tone changing costume makeup is now considered morally suspect, just because one group of people early in the last century used one particular type of makeup in a mocking way we would now consider repugnant (blackface).

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That we cannot make any corner in life or in life's beauty,
That no river is a river which does not flow.

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Trump Warns That Democrats Would Drag Nation Back to Days of Tolerance and Decorum


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