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The Madonna and the Whore

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Berhael
Post subject: The Madonna and the Whore
Posted: Wed 02 Mar , 2005 10:24 am
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Sorry if the thread title shocks or offends. If that is the case, I'll move it to the Thinking of England forum.

I've just been lurking on Manwe and saw vison's incredibly interesting comments about the words used to refer to female anatomy. I'd KILL to join that discussion, but since I cannot do it there, I thought we could perhaps have it here.

I'd especially like to explore the dichotomy between pure, virginal female figures (mothers, sisters, wives...) and the evil ones. It's thankfully a dying stereotype, but as a scholar of 19th century art I encountered that to be a pervasive attitude.

Good books on the subject are Idols of Perversity: Fantasies of Feminine Evil in Fin-de-siecle Culture by Bram Dijkstra, as well as Erika Bornay's Las Hijas de Lilith (as far as I know, in Spanish only).

Before I write more on the subject, I'd like to get some input on whether this would be a worthy topic...


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Rodia
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Posted: Wed 02 Mar , 2005 10:44 am
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Lurker report.
Topic should stay right here.

*makes herself comfy and awaits discussion*

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 02 Mar , 2005 3:20 pm
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They aren't stereotypes, they're archetypes, and they aren't going to die. Ever. We all have moments in which those archetypes shine forth, for better or worse, male and female. What may and probably should die is the enforced reductive connection between the archetype and the individual.

That is: at moments in my life, I have played the part of a warrior, a priest, a king. I am not, though, a warrior, a priest, or a king. Similarly, at moments in a woman's life, she plays the part of a maiden, a temptress, a queen. That does not make her a maiden, a temptress,or a queen.

We are all the parts we play and more.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Wed 02 Mar , 2005 8:47 pm
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Archetypes......

A book I read last year put forth a convincing argument that society moves in predictable cycles, and that we can predict future trends based on the historical model.

The one of the characteristics of the cycle we are in the process of ending was that of decreased differences between the sexes. That's part of why today's models are so darn scrawny. Society's ideals are/were for LESS differences between women and men in many, many ways. Right now we are at probably the minimum level of sexism that we are likely to see.

According to the theory, for the next twenty years the pendulum will swing the other way, until we hit a 40's style of society with maximum differences between sexes again.

It's a very convincing theory. The book is "The Fourth Turning", if anyone is interested.

Anyway, my point is that we've been getting better about fighting those archetypes, but probably this is as good as it gets. It's going to swing the other way for a while.

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Meneltarma
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 4:26 am
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*reads, uses for Victorian literature paper*
:D
Great topic Ber. and I really enjoyed Vison's posts in Manwe as well.


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Elian
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 6:22 am
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I like the topic, though I don't know that I'm articulate enough to add to it myself. What I myself find interesting is the blending of the two archetypes, or if it's even possible for that to successfully occur.

Though I will say, if this is as low as we'll get in regards to sexism? That's just sad.

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Andri
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Posted: Thu 03 Mar , 2005 7:44 am
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Ber, honey, I wish those stereotypes would only be encountered in 19th c art but, as things are, this is not the case. It's not a dying dichotomy but is alive and kickin'.

As I come from a Mediterranean country I see the Madonna/whore dichotomy very often.
"All women are whores, except from my mother" seems to be in the heads of many males who want to confirm to the macho attitude.

Now, do you want to have this discussion in the context of 19th century art and society or do you want to update it and talk about today?
I can do both. :)


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jewelsong
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Posted: Wed 09 Mar , 2005 11:18 am
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Excellent topic, Ber. I responded to vison's comments as well...

I will join in here when I have more time. Right now I have to go scrape ice off the car and get my sorry self to work.


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truehobbit
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Posted: Wed 09 Mar , 2005 12:13 pm
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LOL, I thought it would be about the popstar Madonna.

Nice topic. And maybe I'll head to Manwe again sometime, too.

But I'm not supposed to be posting at all - all the semester's marks are due tomorrow - and I've not paid much attention to work this semester. :roll:

Be back tomorrow night (I hope). :D

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Mon 28 Mar , 2005 2:55 pm
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BUMP!
Isn't this a manifestation of the way that either sex thinks reductively of the other? Women will say that some/all men think with their cocks. Or will make jokes or comments about nerdy, asexual men, or of others being good faithful providers.
In the 19th Century men dominated literary and philosophical thought so it is their viewpoint that has survived. Religious disapproval of sexuality and the mortal dangers of syphilis played a part too. If there is something dangerous, if harm is caused, there is a very human desire to attach blame somewhere. A convenient scapegoat was that of the sexual woman. The result of course is an even greater spread of misery.


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Frelga
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Posted: Mon 28 Mar , 2005 8:52 pm
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Great topic, and one I could go discuss for ages (too bad I have to work).

I think this dichotomy feeds on the belief that woman's sexuality belongs to a man - first to her father and then to her husband. This is a very convenient worldview for the men. It allows a man who adopts it to dismiss sexual needs of his wife - after all she is a good woman and therefore is not interested in that diry business. At the same time he can excuse his own indiscretions, since a) his "good" wife doesn't care, heck, he's doing her a favor by not accosting her b) the "bad" woman is evil and deserves any and all mistreatment.

This is different from the archetypes that Axordil mentioned, when a woman chooses to play one role or another as she wishes.

IME, there is nothing so threatening to many males as a woman who owns her sexuality.

MariaHobbit, if it's as good as it gets, then it's not good enough. :P


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Kushana
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Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 5:29 am
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This is exactly what is at the center of Metropolis: Maria is a schoolteacher, a preacher, a labor activist, a rescuer of all her community's children -- but does she have a husband or children herself? All the other women in her community are prole mothers right out of 1984 I'm trying to remember if she so much as kisses the hero... And when she's replicated, her 'evil twin' is very much the seductress. (To the end of her days the actress would not grant interviews about her role -- and I doubt she was ashamed of the sweet, virginal heroine side of her role...) Indeed she's the only person in the film who has a sexuality.

I think the point of this stereotype is removing normal, enjoyable sexuality from women's lives. (And notice that it doesn't even include the category of "mother"....)

Brrr, now I feel like I've been reading Brave New World

-Kushana

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 5:41 am
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It's a very old polarity, even having religious origins I think. The temple prostitutes functioned this way, didn't they? - because sexual activity was linked to the fertility of the earth.

I am reminded of the Wagnerian opera Tannheuser ... Wagner intended the role of Venus and the role of Elizabeth to be sung by the same woman but only Glynnis Johns had the vocal range to perform it as intended.

Jn

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 7:19 am
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This seems like one consequence of the human mind's preference for opposites. The list of opposite pairs seems endless. It isn't just that the pairs exist, but that we so easily use the members together. It's at the root of western religion. Only an angel can become the devil. Our final destination is either heaven or hell; purgatory is just a stop on the way. Of course, hell is merely the absence of God. Our language provides us readily adaptable prefixes to force the discussion to the 2 extremes. "Non", "anti", and "pro", make it so easy to focus on the extremes. We seem to not easily accept that there can be honest differences in opinion. Instead, we demonize the other side. Just look at the last US presidential election. It's at the heart of the way we view the world, not just sexual archetypes or stereotypes. :(

It is probable that this odd binary strategy was useful in the early stages of human development as a survival technique. It's unfortunate that it has survived so well. I'm not sure what we can do about it as individuals other than to recognize the tendency and avoid it. It is sure to remain a part of our culture, as Kushana pointed out. My guess is for a few thousand more years.

I'm not sure this particular pair is much more telling of our nature than the rest. I'm not denying it has specific consequences such as those Frelga pointed out, but all of the pairings have consequences. IMHO, I agree that the consequences have cyclical peaks and valleys, but my fond hope is that there is a general trend towards more reasonable views of the world.

There is nothing so sexually appealing to some males as a woman who owns her sexuality. ;)

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 7:40 am
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And nothing as worthy of respect to some males as well.


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