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Maria, you’re doing it again. You’re trying to convince another ISTJ that they may be mistaken (Hi Meneltarma, btw!)
I am curious about this: when you believed you were an ISTJ did you take a test that measured the strength of your preferences? I am pretty sure about my type and I have high percentages for the I and J parts, while the S and T are both below 20%. That might explain why I sometimes behave in a non-conventional manner for an ISTJ….. or not?

I still don’t know much about this subject but I have ordered my copy of Please Understand me II via Amazon. Is that a good start?

Sylthian, why do you like ISTJs? Is it because we are superdependable?

An off-topic question for Lord Morningstar. I don’t know if you have mentioned it elsewhere but I was wondering about this. Which type do you think J.K. Rowling is?

Taurië,
It's just that I'm not the only one I know who tests false positive for ISTJ. Last year I had everyone at my workplace take the test, and one other person tested as ISTJ besides me.

I've been watching him ever since I figured out that I wasn't one, and he just doesn't fit the profile. He's always late, he's terribly messy and spends most of his time thinking about his religion. He's not in tune with his physical reality. I walked into the room one time and accidentally dropped something with a loud clatter, and looked over at him-- you know how people do, to share a laugh at my own stupidity--- and he hadn't even noticed that I was there!

He's a dreamer in denial. He's been taught all his life to be on time, dependable, organized and predictable, so those are the traits he values so he tests that way. He tries very hard to be as *good* as a real ISTJ would be, but its very hard for him and he often falls short of the mark-- so he will never feel like a success.

And I think that's very sad. He's a square peg trying desperately to fit in a round hole, and he's just not going to find happiness that way.

That's why I tell ISTJ's about my experience. I wore the ISTJ mask for years, even though I wasn't terribly good at it, growing steadily more dead inside. Now that I'm allowing the stronger part of me (the INFP part) to grow and thrive, I think I'm a better person.

Sometimes I still need that ISTJ part of me, when cleaning house or balancing the checkbook or figuring out a budget. But those really are my inferior functions. The INFP reactions are easier and better, now that I allow them expression.


Just add me to the split personality roster!


edit: And in answer to your question: No, I first took the test hand scored straight from the Kiersey book about five years ago. There is no strength of functions listed that way.

That's interesting. My work desk and my house are terribly messy but I never ever miss a deadline and start thinking about what to put in my suitcase at least one month before going on holiday. What do you think of this?

Quote:

Likewise, judgers are capable of indecision just as perceivers are capable of decision.

Sure...but when it comes to fulfilling a role that requires judgment, a perceiver can do it (uncomfortably), while a role that requires withholding judgment will drive a judger crazy--if they somehow get stuck in it, which is unlikely.

Taurië,
Your definition of terribly messy and mine may be quite different. When I say my house is terribly messy, I mean that it looks like one of those scenes on TV where criminals have searched the place and left everything turned over and thrown about in heaps. Dirty dishes piled on every available horizontal surface in the kitchen. Of course, this level of disorganization takes weeks to acheive, not hours, but still, I don't think a *real* ISTJ could stand it. Two of my kids have a "J" in their designation- and they are the only people in my house who have consistantly more-or-less tidy rooms. The one's with "P" at the end are perpetually disorganized, unless forced to clean up for a visitor.


When I say my co-worker was messy, you could look in the back of his car and see heaps of dirty clothes and trash all mixed together, filling the whole back seat. Part of his job entailed mixing pigments for paints, and to avoid having to wash the pigment stained clothes, he'd wear the SAME CLOTHES for months on end. Sometimes, through a tear in those much abused clothes, you'd see the same pigment stain on his skin for days at a time. We never complained, though, since he didn't stink.

I'm also good at hitting deadlines, and am never late. Part of that is military training. Despite our "P"s, my husband and I have had intensive training in being "judgemental" and use checklists and such at need. We'd rather not, though, and prefer not to plan out things ahead of time.

For instance, we meet every day for lunch, but never decide where we are going until we see each other. In cooking meals, I tend to keep LOTS of supplies in the freezer, so I don't have to have a meal plan figured out. I rarely know what I'm going to cook for supper until I get home and go rummage in the freezer and decide what looks good today. Some people plan for weeks ahead, I've heard.

Pretty soon I'm going to have to figure out where to plant everything in my garden this year. My INTJ mother has already done this and ordered all her seeds and stuff. My plans extend to potatoes. Potatoes need to be planted in March. March is here. As soon as the ground is dry enough, I'll go buy some potato eyes and till the ground and plant them.

As to whatever else I'm going to plant.... that will wait until the time is right for planting. Then I'll decide.

No WAY am I a "J".

Taurie wrote:

An off-topic question for Lord Morningstar. I don’t know if you have mentioned it elsewhere but I was wondering about this. Which type do you think J.K. Rowling is?

INFJ.

Maria wrote:

Last year I had everyone at my workplace take the test

Are you the boss? If not, that’d be quite an achievement.

Axordil wrote:

Sure...but when it comes to fulfilling a role that requires judgment, a perceiver can do it (uncomfortably), while a role that requires withholding judgment will drive a judger crazy--if they somehow get stuck in it, which is unlikely.

I still think it depends on the strength of a person’s functions. Both Js and Ps will be uncomfortable in a role that requires indecision and closure respectively, but they will still be able to do it, to an extent. In both cases, it’ll be worse for those with more strongly defined J/P traits.

LM wrote:

Are you the boss? If not, that’d be quite an achievement.

No, not the boss, but second from the top!

Of course, in a company of usually around 10 people, that doesn't mean a whole lot.

I think I told you at the time: we'd found an ENTP "Inventor" which would have been awfully good for our company if we'd been able to harness that sort of mind to our projects. (We do lots of research and development.) Unfortunately, however, his mind was already set on what he was interested in, and he never gave us much. He could only be trusted with simple tasks, because he was always distracted. What a waste. We finally had to fire him, because he spent all his energy on his hobby (something musical/ electronic) and always came to work strung out and hungover and dead to what we wanted him to do. Zero enthusiasm, very slow, and infuriating for his supervisor. (A Guardian type, who couldn't understand why he always wanted to know "WHY?" he had to do such and such a task.)

Too bad. My boss, the president of the company, is a genius level ENTP, and a joy to work for. If this kid could have only refocused his interests, he would have been a good asset. But he couldn't, or wouldn't, and thus wasn't good to have around.

In the TORC version of this thread, I said that I thought I'd been INFP as a child and turned INTP during my teenage years. LM prompty shot me down and said your type is set at birth and can't change. If he still stands by that, I may have to change my type to INXP. Either that, or I'm just repressing my feelings.

INTJ

I'm never totally joking.

I can't buy the set-at-birth-for-life part. I am not the same type I was ten years ago, let alone thirty.

Axordil wrote:

I can't buy the set-at-birth-for-life part. I am not the same type I was ten years ago, let alone thirty.

And I'm afriad I can't buy that

W00t, for LordM!

Glad to see this here, and glad to see so many different people contributing.

I'm an INTP, no question.

I've been wondering what the significance of the following might be:

I like to have things organized on the inside. What I mean is this, the top of my computer desk? A disaster. CD's, LOTR pics that I want to save from my tear-off calendar, pens, papers, maps, my MBTI info, the kids' stuff, homeschool stuff, etc. It's really quite a mess. But if you open up the drawers, they are quite organized.

The same thing is true for my kitchen (only it's a bit less cluttered and it's definitely clean--I like things clean). If you opened up my spice cabinet you would see that all of the spices are arranged alphabetically, according to size/type of container.

I hate for any dirt or fuzz or anything to be on the carpet, so I vacuum nearly every day. But do I move the piles of stuff off of the floor first? No, what piles of stuff? I only notice them when I actually trip over them or when they avalanche onto my feet or something. Same goes for sweeping the kitchen floor. Dirt, leaves, or dust? Beware! Kids' crap that has gotten under the table or in the middle of the floor? Eh, just sweep around it! I don't even really see it.

I drive my ISTJ best friend CRAZY, and I love it. The thing is, she'll have dust on her furniture, which I can't stand, but no piles anywhere. Is either one more commendable than the other? I don't think so; it's just a difference in personalities. (And I credit LordM's thread on this with giving me the peace of mind of finally knowing that it was normal for me to be this way.)

I think it would be interesting (but possibly unwise!) to analyze people's MBTI's and their reactions/actions during this entire debacle. I've been pondering my own actions in relation to being a P rather than a J.


Lally

Iavas and halplm certainly came out as INFJs…

I wonder how many extra posts this thread has got from being labeled ‘by popular demand’?

Maria, if I have uderstood correctly the implications of being a J I agree that you cannot be one.

Lalaith,
I am an ISTJ and I have both dust and piles (big ones). I guess that my order and organization tend to be mental rather than physical

LM, your thread in TORC was (and still is I think) very popular even if it does not have a catchy title. There are many people who just lurk, you know.
IMO It's the fact that the topic is very interesting for anyone that makes people post.

Taurie,
What I really meant by that lengthy explanation of my conclusions about my type was that only YOU have the information necessary to really type yourself. I was showing you just a fragment of the evidence that led me to the conclusions that I made.

Oh, and by the way, that description of the state of my house is just the average for the last 20 years or so. The past year, since I've allowed myself to act like a INFP, I've actually been BETTER at keeping house. The place is half way cleaned up most of the time now.

Weird, huh? I haven't figured that one out, yet.....

Lalaith wrote:

I hate for any dirt or fuzz or anything to be on the carpet, so I vacuum nearly every day. But do I move the piles of stuff off of the floor first? No, what piles of stuff? I only notice them when I actually trip over them or when they avalanche onto my feet or something. Same goes for sweeping the kitchen floor. Dirt, leaves, or dust? Beware! Kids' crap that has gotten under the table or in the middle of the floor? Eh, just sweep around it! I don't even really see it.

I don't see the piles either, until it's really bad. And I hate carpet. When we built our house 10 years ago, we put in tile on the whole thing. (We did it ourselves, and boy is THAT a job!) Tile is perfect for "P"s with pets! No matter how messy it gets, it always cleans up nice. Somebody comes in with muddy boots? No problem! Just wait til it dries and sweep it up.

I like things to be calm, clean, orderly.

I like that.

But man, I hate the effort involved to achieve it.

LM--

No, really, I was seriously J when I was young. Black and white, yes and no, right and wrong, hierarchies and order.

I, um, "expanded" my horizons in college, and started moving Pwards rapidly.

Unless you think one could be born a P and have their upbringing mask it...hmm.

Vison, I don't think anyone doubts your "J"ness!

Ax wrote:

Unless you think one could be born a P and have their upbringing mask it...hmm.

That was certainly true in my case. I NEEDED to be "J" when I was young. I raised rabbits all through high school, and sold them, and was totally responsible for their welfare.

If I forgot to feed them, they starved. If I failed to give them water in the winter several times a day, they dehydrated. If I failed to get a nest box in when the doe was due to have a litter, she'd have them on the wire and the little ones would usually be dead before I fed the rabbits again. If I forgot to stick a doe in with a buck for re-breeding, there would be no little ones later and I'd be losing money instead of making it.

And then my Dad sawed his finger with a chainsaw and I had to take over milking the cow (by hand) and chopping the firewood. Milking the cow had to be done EVERY day, twice a day and on time or the cow suffered. Splitting the firewood had to be done every day, because we heated with wood, and would freeze without it.

I needed to be J, and became so. I needed to be "S" so as to be more in tune with all these physical things I was doing, and did so. The "T" I blame on my mom. She's an INTJ, and has no patience with illogical feelings and mushy non-scientific stuff.

That's how I came to be a pseudo ISTJ, I think. And going into the military after college only reinforced the tendancies, and of course, being a stay-at-home mom after that... well... ISTJ's are pretty much a stereotypical mom, and I guess I clung to those traits while my kids were still little.

But now, I can relax and be what I really am, and it's refreshing. Or, maybe it's just a midlife crisis, who knows?

I took the test to which Syl linked on the first page, and came up as INTJ; and, the description of that type seems to fit me quite well (I am a scientist, dammit!). I remember though that, I've taken the test a few years back and got either INTP or INFP so, the last two characteristics are somewhat vague (12 and 11 per cent in this test, respectively).

Upbringing has an obvious effect, but it cannot change underlying type. It can work both ways; some people act a little contrary to type if they are pushed into it (like Maria), while others become very strongly defined if their type’s qualities are encouraged (like myself).

If you’re right-handed and you practice using your left hand every day, you’ll become fairly good at it. It still won’t make you any less right-handed though.

The main reason why people change is that types develop over time. Most people gain effective use of their primary function at about 6, their secondary at 13, their tertiary at around 30 and their inferior at about 70. In other words, a nine year old INFP will act a bit like a Sensor and an Intuitive, and a fifty year old INFP will likewise act in a slightly fuzzy way.

Finally, it’s worth noting that organisation or lack thereof is not the best J/P indicator.