Hi everyone,
Happy Holidays to all – and Happy Impending Weekend to those whose interests don’t coincide with any particular upcoming holidays. I’ve finally got a few free moments to dig through a handful of questions and update you on the Complete Recordings – although it looks like you guys are getting pretty good at answering questions on your own!
>>>just a question: is the c.r. music from the original recording? or was this music especially recorded for the cr?>>>
>>>The CR consists of the recordings made for the original post-production of the theatrical releases, and then those made for the post-production of the extended versions of each film. Nothing new was recorded for the CRs.>>>
See, I’m not needed here!
>>>Frodo's "Threads of an old life" scene at the end of The Return of the King has the music that commonly plays underneath the Pensive Setting of the Hobbit Theme (I'm pretty sure). Now, was the music for this scene recorded as is, or was the Pensive Setting edited out so we only here the music underneath? I hope we hear it as is, because it is one of my favorite parts of the score.>>>
You’re hearing the music here as it was recorded. Unless something changes, you’ll be hearing the music exactly like this on the ROTK: CR set.
>>>Also, I think we all know by now that Gandalf's arrival at Minas Tirith was changed in the film, but did Shore score that scene as originally planned? If so, will we hear it in that form (which I think might be similar to the OST unless there is unused music) or will we hear it as heard in the film?>>>
Shore’s music was written to the original cut of the film, with Gandalf’s initial arrival at Minas Tirith coinciding with Faramir’s retreat from Osgiliath. In all honesty, it is still being decided how this will be presented on the CD set.
>>>Doug, is there any hope to hear the abandoned version of the "Into the west" (not sure about the title) song by Lennox in the CR?>>>
If you’re referring to “Use Well These Daysâ€â€¦ currently it seems unlikely that this will placed on the ROTK: CR set, simply because it’s never actually a part of the storytelling. However, it will be included on an upcoming release, so don’t worry at all. You’ll have it.
>>>IIRC it was even featured on some of the OST versions, right?>>>
It was on the DVD that came with the deluxe ROTK CD, yep.
>>>So I've been around the board long enough to hear quite a bit about Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen. I have to admit, I am a 100% "Ring" virgin but am very interested in checking it out. What do you all suggest as the best way to go about beginning this journey? Thanks!>>>
Hey, with all this Wagner shoptalk, I thought some of you may be interested in a book by Bryan Magee, The Tristan Chord: Wagner and Philosophy.
Link
(I don’t know Bryan, so I’m not stumping for him, but given the intellectual points parsed in the Wagner discussion, I thought this wouldn’t be out of line.)
>>>Another question - have you thought about some sort of gift set when this is all said and done? I was thinking something alongside the Extended Edition Gift Sets with the following:>>>
>>>I've mentioned this way back in the past somewhere, but they should offer a slip case mail away offer for the CRs like they did for the EEs. I did that for my EE movies and it works great.
Doug, would a release of all three CRs in a box set happen to coincide with the release of ROTK:CR or will it be just a solo release only? Just curious. Thanks!>>>
You’re not too far off the mark here.
>>>mine doesn't shut either! I would expect a lot more for 60 dollars>>>
FYI, the shutting issue is related to shipping not manufacturing, so I’m afraid there’s little the production side can do short of requesting that handlers take a little more care… which is being done.
>>>Good News about your book Doug, I am waiting with great anticipation (are we all?!)
About the hobbit themes Doug, you’re saying that the Lullaby setting is returning not debuting. Is that a mistake because I can find this in FOTR>>>
It is a conscious decision. The Lullaby material is based so closely on the original Shire theme (as it should be) that it can’t really be called a brand new motif. However, something like the Playful Setting takes the Shire’s stepwise intro and creates an entirely new motif out of it, so that was pegged as Debuting material. It’s a fine line, and we have to be very, very careful to properly present the nature of the material.
>>>And now, let's hear about the preliminary work being done on The Return of the King: The Complete Recordings! Ohhhh, Doooouuuug!!!!!>>>
Heh, well, it’s happening! The liners are in a rough form, a draft of a first rough edit is completed. HS is busy with his opera right now (as well as some other projects… yes, one of which is LOTR related), so as soon as he has time, his first round of comments will come in and we’ll begin coordinating efforts.
>>>Regarding the Balrog fight/Gandalf rebirth music in the Fan credits on the EE...the opening twenty or so seconds of that piece (2:04:33_4:55, Disc Two, Region 1;lyrics from "The Fight"?) is an alternate for Gandalf being revealed to the Three Hunters, isn't it? I was syncing unused music with the DVD tonight, and it seems to fit there. (43:24_43:48, Region 1, TE)>>>
Yep, it is an alternate. The version on the CR is the other significant take… and the one that HS ultimately decided to use here.
>>>In case I've missed hints about this, is the 'rarities disc' expected to be part of the multimedia content of the book?>>>
>>>That's the rumor. I remember suggesting this to Doug many moons ago, I will go through my posts and find out, just for S&Gs!>>>
It’s still the rumor, as well. I’ll discuss details when details are more detailed.
>>>One question I have which any one on this message board who has the set can answer is: In the end credits of the film (not the Fan Credits, but the actual credits), correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there the music piece (the nature them I think) where the trio meet Gandalf The White included and seemed somewhat expanded from the actual proper place in the film, --- I don't think I heard this on TTT:CR end credits section??????, or was I so overwhelmed by the experience that I didn't pick that out individually by itself?????>>>
See above, it you will. The Fan Scroll music was an alternate.
>>>I think it is funny and great, that moment in the recordings on the first disc of The Two Towers - I think it might be track 6 at about 3:30 minutes in, and I just can't get that moment (5 beat pattern) out of my head of the excitement and anticipation of that podcast.........'And this is the moment you've all been waiting for!!!!...........'
Thanks Doug...........LOL I don't think I will ever imagine anything else, some may say you've ruined the piece for me as I imagine nothing else but your voice about to appear (and it doesn't), but it just reminds me of how exciting everything is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>
HA! Will I hope I didn’t permanently mar your perception of this music with my dumb voice! Just keep playing that track over and over, you’ll eventually burn my voice out of your head, I promise!
>>>in the track ''edoras'' as the fellowship enter edoras and aragorn looks up to see eowyn and as he looks again she is gone and there is a gong, is there a reason for this gong not being on the CR.>>>
The tam-tam (or gong) was performed here by Peter Jackson. It was recorded wild, and never actually a part of Shore’s original concept for this piece. Just something fun for Jackson to do, and a nice bit of PR for the sessions. Now certainly it didn’t hurt anything, but when the time came to reassemble the piece for the CR, Shore went back to his original composition, which did not include the tam-tam hit.
>>>Also could you further exaplain, cause i dont quite understand why that bit of music as frodo and sam come up the mountain, originally the title for TTT theatrical edition is not on the CR and instead the shire theme is there.>>>
Check the Annotated Score online, if you have a moment. The music you hear in the film is tracked. The music on the CD set is what Shore actually wrote and recorded.
>>>In regards to the "Rarities" disc that is being rumoured. I have info from some one "VERY reliable" that this will happen after the release of ROTK-CR.>>>
Are there spies in the midst?
>>>1. I was trying to play one phrase from the Two Towers liner notes on my piano to identify a theme I couldn’t hear, but noticed a sign I’ve never seen before. It’s neither a treble nor bass clef, and I noticed it’s only for the viola (which might explain why I’ve never seen it before). What is the name of this clef (or whatever it is) and how would I read the notes for that line for piano? Is it comparable to the treble or bass clefs?>>>
The alto clef is a C clef, which means whatever line is between the two curves is always designated as C. (Bass clef, on the other hand in a F clef, treble is a G clef. You can get a much more detailed explanation here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clefs)
>>>2. Shore’s score is the first time I’ve encountered aleatoric writing, as Doug defined the musical style of the Watcher in the Water music. Would the cue from 2:18 (and more audibly 2:30) of ‘Night Camp’, and 2:40 and 3:20 of ‘The Dead Marshes’, and especially from the beginning (and mostly 0:40 to 1:36) of ‘Gandalf the White’, be other examples of aleatoric music? The opening 90 seconds of ‘Gandalf the White’ is one of my favorite moments. I’ve always loved the sound of an orchestra warming up, which seems at least superficially related to aleatoric music or what’s going on at these moments.>>>
Yes, those are both examples of aleatoric music. It’s all over the LOTR scores, actually, though I believe TTT features more of it than the other two.
>>>Is there a difference between aleatoric music, ‘tone clusters’, and ‘divisis’ (described on p. 42 of the Fellowship liner notes)?>>>
There are differences yes. In simplified terms, tone clusters simply apply to harmonies in which several stepwise pitches are sounded simultaneously. If you play the first five tones of a major scale simultaneously, you’ll have rich, bright a tone cluster. If you play the first five tones of a chromatic scale simultaneously, you’ll have a rather piercing, harsh tone cluster. It’s simply a different harmonic scheme, not triadic, not quartal, not quintal, etc.
Divisis are markings in written music that indicate a section is to divide itself in a non-traditional way. For example, if you asked the first violins to divide themselves four ways to perform a major seventh chord, you’d notate “div.†and indicate a divisi. Shore makes extensive use of divisis in his string writing, both using consonant harmony and dissonant harmony. This is how he achieves some of those thick, threatening sounds in the string sections (there are some spots where the celli and basses are divided 8 or even 12 ways to play a cluster)… as well as some of his very thick, richly sonorous major chords.
>>>3. The passage in ‘The Dead Marshes’ from 3:20 to 3:45 where the choir does…whatever they do. Man that would have been amazing to be present for the recording of this part. Some of the choir appear to be making sounds in this part that are not notes in the conventional sense, including whimpers, sighs, and so forth. Would Shore have been able to give direction in his musical notation of what he wanted, or does that kind of music need to be talked through, directed, and then conducted in person? Do professional choir members today receive vocal training in these kind of ‘extra-music’ sounds? Before the Complete Recordings when I watched the movie I assumed those sounds were part of the sound design of the film, not part of Shore’s composition.>>>
There are actually ways to notate this type of writing. You can see one method here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprechstimme
Anyone that is schooled in music today will have to tackle these Twentieth Century techniques, so it’s really just part of the standard training.
>>>4. Just as a comment, I’ve noticed that the presentation of the Ringwraith theme in ‘Wraiths on Wings’ is far more vicious and less majestic than in Fellowship. There was a dark beauty to the Ringwraith choir in Fellowship and one gets the impression Shore wanted the audience to identify with on some level, but here, the choir almost seems to be…achorally chanting the theme, instead of singing it (if ‘achoral’ makes any sense). The image that pops into my head is that the Wraiths got a severe tongue lashing from Sauron after they failed in Fellowship, and now gone is the beauty of their evilness. Now they’re just desperate to find the Ring and as a result, their musical presence is far more base and primitive.>>>
Yes! They’re also gaining in power. Look at the score of their writing in ROTK. As the hobbits get closer and closer to Mordor, they’re approach the seat of the Wraiths’ power.
>>>we at ColonneSonore.net have just published a new exclusive interview with Howard Shore, in which he talks about THE DEPARTED, the LOTR Complete Recordings and SOUL OF THE ULTIMATE NATION:>>>
Maurizio, I enjoyed your piece as always. Thanks so much for the kind words!
>>>As for "Fellowship" (and "Towers" and "Return" and as EE's too??) done with live orchestra. What a stunning idea! It will be an experience like no other! And what a feat it will be to get the orchestra to play pianissimo enough and for long stretches under the dialogue!!... Suggestion: it will have to be done a la Bayreuth with a hidden orchestra so the light spill does not effect the screen...>>>
This Fellowship performance may be coming up sooner than you think. Stay alert!
>>>Do you know anything more about this? If so, do you know whether the score would be balanced against the sound effects and dialogue -- similar to say, the 20th Anniversary Premiere of E.T. -- or if it would be more of a FOTR-as-a-silent-film experience, perhaps with subtitles?>>>
I don’t know many more details other than there are negotiations under way right now, and, as I say, performances may begin sooner rather than later. I’d look very carefully at what Shore did with the Naked Lunch concerts to get an idea of what may transpire here.
>>>Good Lord! It looks like they're not actually carrying it any more, and it's only available from their partners. That is just weird as can be. Why would they no longer be carrying it themselves? Was this a limited release and they aren't getting it in any more? Or did they decide that at its overblown MSRP that not enough people were buying it to make carrying it worthwhile?
This whole TTT situation does not make sense.>>>
As Mr. TennisBall points out, yes, TTT has actually sold out! It’s barely been out of a month, but it’s already sold out, which I consider nothing short of amazing! There is another pressing under way now, and it’ll be available again in early January. So fear not. As always, no conspiracies, so scheming. You guys just bought them all!
Ok, last update before a long winter’s nap… I believe that as of the beginning of this week, the deal is finally firmly in place for the LOTR book. If all goes according to plan, you should be able to hold this book (and its friendly plastic accoutrements) in your hands in 2007. So get ready, it’s gonna be a big year for the music of LOTR!
I’m going to go start taking vitamins now.
Happy new year, all. Thanks for your support, well wishes and insatiable interest over the past few months. Hope you’ll all be along for the ride in 2007. Here we go!
-Doug