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Berhael
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:28 pm
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:hug:! Thank you [real name deleted]. I apologise for jumping the gun on you like that. :(
As for me, I've forgiven you for your outburst, which I understand. I don't know what the arbitration process implies, but if I have no problem with you, do we need to go through it? :scratch
I'm as clueless about this as the next poster! :D

Ranger edit, 07 Nov 05

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:36 pm
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The arbitration request was filed by jnyusa, as much to give a direction to the flailing around as anything, and she would have to withdraw it, I believe.

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Berhael
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:39 pm
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OK, then I'm willing to go through it, if this example helps define the process, as long as I know what I have to do. :)

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Winged Balrog
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:46 pm
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wilko: Thank you for returning. Even if I disagree with some of what you say, I respect that you aren't afraid to stand up for what you believe in. I hope the arbitration process goes well and that any confusion as to site policy is cleared up on all sides. Welcome back. :)

Ber: Even though you're going to be taking a break for a while, I really hope you're able to stick around and post a little bit at least. You're one of my favorite new people I've met here, and I've gotta say I'd miss you! :hug:

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:47 pm
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My understanding is that the only issue involved in the arbitration is the question of whether wilko's reading and posting rights in the invite forum should be restored.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 11:01 pm
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Voronwe: that's right.

Hi, [real name deleted]. Glad you're here.

The reason you don't see a thread in the jury room is because Leoba is probably waiting for a response to her email, letting her know that you got it. Or maybe you sent a response and she just hasn't seen it yet.

I'd like to see us go through the process, as we needed a trial run anyway. I hope that doesn't make you feel too much like a guinea pig, Wilko, but this case appears to me to be a rather simple one, except for the fact that it is the first and there will probably be a lot of "what do we do next?"

In the Jury Room, in the sticky thread at the top of the forum, the second post describes the arbitration process as it stands now. Everyone can read that at their leisure.

The next thing that has to be done is that Wilko and Ber and I have to give to Leoba one or two names of posters we would be content to have serve on a jury. There's no jury pool yet, so just pick people who were members as of March 12 (our catch-all date for now) whom you think would be fair. Leoba has to select three and ask them if they are willing. When she has three willing bodies, she'll start a thread, post my request, post the names and emails of the jurors, and enable all of us to post in that forum.

Then we each send our 'version of things' and the outcome we would like to see, or at least the decision we'd like to see the jury make, by email to each of the jurors. When they have comments from Wilko, Ber and myself, they'll post those comments simultaneously and then we will begin discussing whatever is necessary.

So, basically, Ber and Wilko need to contact Leoba, and we'll take it from there.

Arbitration has not been tested on animals. It's being tested on us. :)

Jn

Ranger edit, 07 Nov 05

Last edited by Jnyusa on Mon 07 Nov , 2005 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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yovargas
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 11:26 pm
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Question: Some, notably Lidless, called for a ban. Given that only admins can innitiate the banning process, is Lidless' call merely ignored or is it a matter of the admins discussing whether this was or was not a breach of the rules?

(Feel free to point me to the appropriate thread if this has already been discussed; I went to the "How to use the Jury Room" sticky and wasn't clear on this)


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truehobbit
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 11:33 pm
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[real name deleted], good to see you back! :)

LOL, Voronwe, same thought here - I knew it would be useful to have wilko here, I just didn't think it would be as a guinea pig for our arbitration process. ;)

Ranger edit, 07 Nov 05

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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 11:55 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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yovargas wrote:
Question: Some, notably Lidless, called for a ban. Given that only admins can innitiate the banning process, is Lidless' call merely ignored or is it a matter of the admins discussing whether this was or was not a breach of the rules?

(Feel free to point me to the appropriate thread if this has already been discussed; I went to the "How to use the Jury Room" sticky and wasn't clear on this)
yov, it should go to arbitration, them's the rules. I just happen to know what my vote and preferred punishment would be if I were the judge - so it's probably a good thing I'm not. wilko has me steamed regarding his approach towards [non-member screen name deleted].

[non-member screen name deleted], too, has me steamed now. She's been great up to this point. It's a private, invite-only board - she has no right to ask anything, just as TORC posters have no rights to the Mod Forum and she has no right to tell me what to do in a YM with a third party. How would it look if someone went crying to the mods saying, "don't talk about me there, I hear some of you might not like me"?

What [non-member screen name deleted] should have done was to say, "Sorry, I'm not going to read /listen to that. That was on a private board." She didn't. Well, ignorance is bliss and now she's paying the price. I like [non-member screen name deleted] and think she's a great mod and have called her a friend for almost two years now.

Hell, I remember when she broke up (temporarily) with [non-member screen name deleted] at the Liverpool m00t last year - I was the one giving her the most hugs on the train platform and drying her eyes. But I have no sympathy here for her. Not one bit. It's just playing the victim, now.

I mean, we have to talk about potential invitees as part of the invite process for chrissakes. And talk about them openly and honestly, too.

And we've been petting her hand, but ultimately it's her own fault for listening to it in the first place.

Yes these problems will go away when the boards are open. But until that time, any (potential) infringement on confidentiality, especially in Invites, is one that I find the hardest to forgive.

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

Last edited by Lidless on Mon 21 Mar , 2005 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 11:57 pm
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Yov: is Lidless' call merely ignored or is it a matter of the admins discussing whether this was or was not a breach of the rules

For the moment we have to ignore it, because things concerning the Invite Forum were already discussed by the membership, decided either by vote or by consensus, and are now up for review by the constitution committee. Revealing the contents of the Invite Forum is very specifically not a bannable offense at this point. The consequence is supposed to be removal of access to that Forum, and we hadn't even decided whether that should be permanent or temporary, so this is what the jury will have to decide. It also has to be shown that Wilko actually did something contrary to our policy or by-laws or some such because that hasn't been demonstrated yet.

The other things discussed - importance of confidentiality throughout the forum, etc. - there aren't any rules yet governing those things. It's a bit early to talk about banning people when we don't know yet what a person can or cannot be banned for ... so ... for now we're holding an arbitration and proceeding forward with what we've got.

Jn

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wilko185
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 12:12 am
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I replied to Leoba a few hours ago, saying that I'd be happy enough with a random jury choice for my picks. If it would be better were I to actually choose, feel free to knock the ball back into my court :).


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 12:17 am
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Jny wrote:
Revealing the contents of the Invite Forum is very specifically not a bannable offense at this point.
So, will this arbitration be based on the intent to reveal contents? Or actual revealing of contents?

Deciding to do something is entirely different from actually doing it.


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Eruname
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 12:21 am
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I'm glad you're back [real name deleted]. :) Your journey was 5 hours longer than expected? Ouch! Sometimes trains suck though I've only had good experiences with the Virgin trains! They're so quiet, smooth and nice. :D

Ranger edit, 07 Nov 05

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 1:14 am
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Maria: So, will this arbitration be based on the intent to reveal contents? Or actual revealing of contents? Deciding to do something is entirely different from actually doing it.

It will be up to the jury, I guess, to decide what they want to take into account.

[real name deleted], Leoba would probably appreciate hearing some kind of preference from you because she'll have to fill out the jury herself if we don't give her anything.

The way I understand it ... sounds funny because I'm the one who actually wrote the stickies but only based on what I pulled out of the discussion threads ... the way I understand what the membership wanted is for the majority of our problems to be self-cleaning. In an arbitration, the jury members don't really advocate for one poster or another, as they would, for example, in a ban hearing. Their role is to decide on a fair course of action based on what they hear from all sides. So it's not like you're going in without a lawyer if you don't express a preference for jury members. But I'm guessing that from Leoba's point of view, she'd probably rather not have to make the choices herself.

Jn

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

Last edited by Jnyusa on Mon 07 Nov , 2005 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wilko185
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 1:24 am
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Jny, I did say "random" choices, not "Leoba's" choices :). But maybe that would be too much like Russian Roulette ;). Ok, I'll send Leoba some names then.
Eruname wrote:
I've only had good experiences with the Virgin trains! They're so quiet, smooth and nice. :D
Virgins often are ;)
Ahem!
The train took 5 hours to get from Glasgow to Carlisle (less than 100 miles) where they put it out of its misery, and I had to get a bus the rest of the way. Virgin are not my favorite company at the moment.

Thank you all for the positive comments, it's very gracious of you :).


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:08 am
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Jny, I did say "random" choices, not "Leoba's" choices

We're still working on the time zone table, Wilko. We haven't got to the random number table yet. ;)

Jn

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oldtoby
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:19 am
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Actually thats a good idea, use a random number table generator (available for free all over the place on the net) Each member here already has a number so we use the table to pick who goes on Wilkos "Jury" That way theres no unintentional bias from having one person pick the members.


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Eruname
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:24 am
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wilko185 wrote:
Virgins often are ;)
Ahem!
:nono:

:P

Sheesh, that train was crawling. I think I'd have lost it!
oldtoby wrote:
Actually thats a good idea, use a random number table generator (available for free all over the place on the net) Each member here already has a number so we use the table to pick who goes on Wilkos "Jury" That way theres no unintentional bias from having one person pick the members.
What if someone who isn't at all active or hasn't visited here in weeks gets picked? Maybe that could work if a list of jury volunteers was assembled and numbers assigned to each name..

I'm also assuming that people would be able to refuse this duty if they wanted to? (Maybe I should just go check Jn's sticky. ;) )

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oldtoby
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:35 am
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Hmm yeah, good point. Maybe another alternative would be to pick more people. Say the jury is going to be 5 members, then when using the table the selector takes 8 numbers rather than just 5, then if someone says "I cant/dont want to participate" we just move to the next available number till we get 5 people.

(not to insult anyones intelligence but should I maybe explain the proper procedure for picking random numbers off a table, in case someone doesn't know? cause there is a right and wrong way to do it)


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 22 Mar , 2005 2:44 am
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Random numbers ... :)

Well, when we were discussing how juries should be selected, posters were pretty adamant about letting the people in the arbitration choose their own arbitrators, and letting a poster who is up for banning choose their own advocate.

A great deal of the discussion revolved around the fact that in a culturally diverse environment misunderstandings happen rather easily. The posters actually involved in a dispute would know best who is most likely to understand them.

Random selections can create systematic bias accidentally. Empiricists have to worry about this so I suppose that we do to. What we've substituted for that is a known but balanced bias ... more like a random block design ... and I tend to think that will come closer to achieving our primary goal, which is perceived fairness and therefore compliance on the part of the posters.

Jn

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