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B77--open or invite-only or what?

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Axordil
Post subject: B77--open or invite-only or what?
Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:39 pm
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Ah, screw it. I'm having the other thread locked. :D

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:39 pm
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I would like to officially propose a compromise between open and invite-only, one which I brought up in the convention.

1) Anyone (over 13 and with a valid email) who asks to join, or anyone recommended by a member, is automatically registered after a brief delay, during which they are listed on a thread. No discussion or voting takes place.

2) Each member in good standing may, once a (period to be determined), veto any membership when it comes up on the thread, and explain their veto. The membership is then tabled for (same period as veto).

It is easy, BTW, to set up a thread to email you anytime a post is made there.

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Ethel
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:47 pm
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Arrgh! And I had just posted in the other one! :x :x :x :D

I want the board to be open - without screening or vetoes. Obviously we need rules and processes before that can happen, and I'm doing my best to help with that.

For me, what it comes down to is that I have a visceral dislike and distrust of exclusive clubs. In my opinion they are profoundly anti-democratic.

Some people have said - if person X comes here, I'll leave. To those people I say: But what if person X comes here and behaves well? Or behaves badly and is handled appropriately by the community?

I'm good at keeping secrets but I don't like them. A secret invitation forum is a burden I would rather be without.

I dislike talking about people who can't see what is being said about themselves, or offer a defense. I think knowing that the person can't offer a defense leads to bad habits of discourse - it's too easy to dump on someone when they can't challenge you.

This is very important to me.

Last edited by Ethel on Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:47 pm
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Reposting:

I agree with the idea of fully opening up the board if that will make the most people happy. But ideally I would prefer something like Ax's suggestion, whereby anyone can register, and if no-one has a *major* problem with that, then they are accepted after a short amount of time.

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:56 pm
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Maybe we should consider a full opening up sooner than planned (October? or did I drink too much again?). The hacking and bashing with people from TORC cost too much energy. These fights induce a vicious circle: because we're hurt we retire behind walls, people notice us defending and are offended by the exclusiveness, throw stuff over the wall and hurt us etc. ...

But I lay my trust into our congress and their constitution. They will work out a plan that'll do fine.

Democracies, btw., are involved in wars as well as dictatorships. nobody ever said that democracy is per se peaceful.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:57 pm
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Thanks, Ax. :D I'm sorry I was a pain in the ass, but I do think a plain discussion thread will work better. It's always possible to add a poll later.

I agree with Ethel's points.

I also think that the goal of building a superb and democratically structured discussion board is incompatible with the goal of having a cozy place to gossip and vent without consequence. It's clear that we no longer have the latter anyway. So why not work to build the former--which includes allowing people to join freely in the discussion?

TORC at its height was an amazing board. But it was also open.


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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:58 pm
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Well, it looked open. Until you stepped on one of the land mines.

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:00 pm
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Open.

Once the rules are set - that's why I head for the constitution thread....

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:01 pm
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Axordil wrote:
Well, it looked open. Until you stepped on one of the land mines.
I know--that's why I said "democratically structured." ;)

My point was that people could enter the discussion on TORC whenever they chose, and I think that's what gave the place its richness. We all know that the circumstances under which they left were sometimes, er, less than ideal.


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vison
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:13 pm
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
Axordil wrote:
Well, it looked open. Until you stepped on one of the land mines.
I know--that's why I said "democratically structured." ;)

My point was that people could enter the discussion on TORC whenever they chose, and I think that's what gave the place its richness. We all know that the circumstances under which they left were sometimes, er, less than ideal.
I agree with this. The sooner we can be an open board the better. The place WILL NOT survive if it becomes just a little incestuous group sniping at everyone who's not here.

NOT THAT IT'S THAT NOW, but it could get that way. We gotta sink or swim in the open ocean, as far as I'm concerned.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:28 pm
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I say it should be open the moment the Dirt and Wires of board77 (constitution)is ratified. I don't think that one person should have the power to veto someone else's membership, but I do think that one person should be able to call for a vote on a particular person.


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Nin
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:31 pm
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Amen for the delay, Voronwe (maybe one month of testing the constitution)- but I think once the boards are open no vote should be required for anybody.

Only if a problem with a poster appears, measures have to be taken. Until then, for me everybody registering should have the benefit of doubt.

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:31 pm
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Voronwe:

Hmm. I could live with that as well, in principle.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:36 pm
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Nin, my preference also would be that there would be no votes at all, but I am looking for a compromise solution that would be acceptable to the greatest number of people.


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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:40 pm
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Exactly. I myself would be happiest with an invitation board, but am willing to compromise to:

a) keep the people we have, who are uppermost in my mind, and
b) come up with a workable long-term solution.

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Farawen
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:41 pm
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Open as soon as we're ready.


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The Watcher
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:42 pm
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Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
I say it should be open the moment the Dirt and Wires of board77 (constitution)is ratified. I don't think that one person should have the power to veto someone else's membership, but I do think that one person should be able to call for a vote on a particular person.
Then, how is it really any different? :scratch It still becomes an approval issue. I am not poking fun at your suggestion, I am trying to figure out how it would be implemented. Would this be before that member is activated? Or, only if some offense had been committed?

I agree with those that have suggested that once the Constitution is in place, a vote to open the boards commences. I am in favor of an open board, I fear for what it becomes if it cannot.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:52 pm
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Once the Charter is approved, and we have experimented with it a bit so that we have confidence in it, I'd like to see us vote on opening the board.

I personally will vote yes.

Jn

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Eruname
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:53 pm
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This is from Wilko's thread since I don't want to derail it:
gimli wrote:
Unfortunatly so far. no one is willing to discuss it. those that want it opened are in the minority to the point that everytime we even mention it, we get a dozen people pushing it aside saying it isnt time yet. We have listened to them. We have accepted their requests. we have let the issue settle for a while. But when will we discuss it? Those for a closed board are not the only ones with an opinion on this site. When do those of us that want it opened get to have our vote? When do we get our serious discussion thread on opening or closing the board? So far the only answer we have ever received when we mentioned it is "now isnt the time" "In the future maybe" "not yet". Forget a vote, so far we havent even been allowed to have a serious discussion about it. I value your opinion greatly Prim, but i do hope you can understand our concern as well
I think you're mistaken Gimli. I'm not sure if a single person on this board has ever said they want it closed permanently. The most vocal person for a closed board has been Din IMO, but he's never advocated this place being closed permanently. You've interpreted the "Not yet, we're not ready" answer as a complete no which is wrong. People just want to have our governance issues set so that we can deal with the problems that come along with an open board. That's all.
Ethel wrote:
The events of this weekend would not have happened if this were not a closed board.
How could we have anything other than a closed board at this point in time? You don't think that we should have just flung our doors open at the height of all the TORC crap with no established guildlines for handling problems do you? IMO this place would have crashed and burned and turned into one big flamefest.

All we need is to get the constitution set (and if the new B77 isn't open by then, do some editing cleaning up here possibly?), and hope that there are no more flare ups at TORC involving us. Then we'll be good to go. :)

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 5:57 pm
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TW--

The difference would be that most names would slide right on through without an issue, but if someone really, really felt in their bones that a particular person would be inimical to the board, they could ask for a discussion of that person. This would take place before the person came in. The underlying idea (as _I_ see it, I don't claim to speak for anyone else) is that there _are_ folks out there who would actively seek to disrupt the board and who offer nothing except aggrevation and pain. If someone is willing to put their reputation on it, and make a case that persuades the board, even those who believe in absolute opnness, then it's almost certainly saving the board the trouble of dealing with said person later.


Vorownwe--
I've decided that I like your version better. It feels more democratic. I assume the same sorts of time limits would apply.

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