board77

So long as pornographic images are not featured in England--and they aren't--I don't think we need a porn site-style GIANT DISCLAIMER, just one that does as Prim suggests. The necessary language can be in the TOS.

I obviously think England is more integral to the site than others, but that's because I think having a site designed for adults where one can't talk about sex is like having a car that only runs on four line highways.

BTW, I like the Red Book. Although I like "The Rules" too, also a Shire concept.

I like "Charter" and I like "Red Book"; the latter is more friendly, I think.

Oh my God, I have forgotten to say that I love The Red Book....


hopefully we will not have too many Maoists registering if they google that....

Upon further reading, Red Book has grown on me. I like it.

As to England, I'd actually be surprised if we really needed much of anything. It was already decided that there shouldn't be anything actually pornographic in there, so it's just frank sexual discussions. In my mind, it isn't anything much beyond what one might find in a good high school sex ed class, as far as appropriateness-levels go. Obviously, the discussions are much more personal, but that alone doesn't change the nature of adult-ness. You can google to legitimate sites with sexual discussions more frank then the ones I've seen on England that don't have disclaimers regarding age limits and such, so I suspect that this isn't anything we actually need to worry about.

And we are drifting off-topic...so, I will bring us back.

I had a revelation last night regarding openness. My fundamental assumption about what went bad on TORC is not that there were bad people there that spoiled it. There were, and probably are, still bad people there, but that's not TORC's issue. The structure is--the top-down, this is my house, or vinyard, or whatever metaphor is active this week, and what I say goes, you're all replacable parts and the vision is everything attitude structure. Bad structures turn good people bad. That's my theory, and if I am to prove it, and prove that good founders, with a good attitude and a good structure will keep a board good, there's only one way to do it.

Open the doors and let them in. "Bad eggs" will turn up, but they would anyway, eventually. Hell, I could go bad, if the wrong combination of things happened. When that happens, we will have the mechanisms to deal with it RIGHT, and FAIRLY, and OPENLY.

And if it turns out my theory was wrong, all it means is that message boards are doomed to this cycle. No loss.

I hereby withdraw my objections to opening the boards. However, I do think that the people presently on the "we would like to invite list" should be talked to before a grand opening, and that the grand opening wait until we DO have the structures and strictures in place.

I just had an idea regarding the Thinking of England forum... maybe it's a silly one... but just like we have alternate IDs for the RP forum, maybe someone might be comfortable with the idea that they could have an alternate ID to read and post in England? Just a suggestion.

Good suggestion, Ber.

Me, I've always considered posting a kind of role-playing to begin with...after all, my real name isn't Axordil. Or is it?

Sorry this if off topic Ax, but needed to respond.

The disclaimer just doesn't deal with the England forum. We have adult language in probably most of the forums on this board and also people have posts with innuendo in them...just fun, silly stuff. When Lidless uses the word 'adult' in the disclaimer, to me it just wasn't dealing with the sex stuff. It was stating that this is a group of adults that get together, so "adult" topics and language would come up.

Maybe there's a way to tone down the disclaimer and not make it seem like this place is incredibly naughty?

I'm really wondering what's necessary.

Look at Ain't-It-Cool News. Plenty of foul language, a usually gory cartoonish animation at the top of every page, obviously no subject matter restrictions--and there are no disclaimers at all. And I have no doubt that at least half the readers of that site are boys in their teens. (They probably contribute more than half of the obscenities. )

It's a U.S.-based site, also.

I'm just not sure we need a legal-style disclaimer for plain old adult conversation. The England forum, yes. But ordinary adult give-and-take? Wouldn't a warning at registration (as a courtesy) be enough?

Man, I wish we had a lawyer handy.

Primmy wrote:

I'm really wondering what's necessary.

Look at Ain't-It-Cool News. Plenty of foul language, a usually gory cartoonish animation at the top of every page, obviously no subject matter restrictions--and there are no disclaimers at all. And I have no doubt that at least half the readers of that site are boys in their teens. (They probably contribute more than half of the obscenities. )

It's a U.S.-based site, also.

I'm just not sure we need a legal-style disclaimer for plain old adult conversation. The England forum, yes. But ordinary adult give-and-take? Wouldn't a warning at registration (as a courtesy) be enough?

Man, I wish we had a lawyer handy.

CAN'T HELP YOU ON THE LAWYER THING (AS THE ONLY LAWYER WHOSE BODY I INHABIT HAS SPENT THE LAST 17 YEARS SINCE GRADUATING FROM LAW SCHOOL

[17!!!! *faints, old joints creaking*]
.
.
.
.
[*slowly revives & continues*]

DOING EVERYTHING WITHIN HIS POWER TO BE AN ATTORNEY WITHOUT ACTUALLY HAVING TO DO ANYTHING REMOTELY LAWYERLY), BUT THIS PARTICULAR SAD PATHETIC EXCUSE OF A MESSAGEBOARD SUSPECTS THAT YOUR FORMULATION WOULD BE QUITE SUFFICIENT.

SIGNED,

THE RESIDENT MISERABLE POLTROO

The thought struck me earlier that, really, is this any different then a street corner? Wouldn't this place be treated the same from a legal perspective? I don't think there is any laws about a group of adults talking about their sex lives in public. If someone is detailing to a friend what they tried with their lover last night out on the street and a five year old happens to walk by, I don't think there is any legal danger there, is there? I would think the same mentality would apply here, even to England, since it's nothing but conversation. Thinking about it this way, I doubt that there is any need at all for disclaimers and such. It's just people chatting.

Except that here the five year old can join in the conversation without us knowing the better. That's the problem, I believe - participation.

Jn

We also need to allow for what the parents of that five-year-old might do if they discovered what he's been listening to. And remember that the United States is a very litigious country.

I think we ought to ask for faxed parental permission for minors, and emphasize that the site is intended for conversation among adults. But please let's not mention EXPLICIT SEXUAL CONTENT OMG until people who've registered inquire about the England forum (if it's on the new server--if it's not, I see no need to mention it "officially").

I see your point, Jn. Damn you for dashing my hopes of having contributed a good point!

For the record, I would really hate to see England separated out like if it was the leper forum or something. Unless it is seen as legally necessary, that would really suck.

Primula_Baggins wrote:

But ordinary adult give-and-take? Wouldn't a warning at registration (as a courtesy) be enough?

That's what I was thinking we'd do the whole time and not have some disclaimer on some front page all of the time. Just have people agree to the terms in the registration.

Re: keeping the England forum on the phpbber site. This is part of their TOS. I don't know if you are currently doing that. I don't go in there because I am avoiding certain unwanted images in my brain (like all of you nude). Must be an uptight Puritan American thing.

phpbber TOS wrote:

You are not allowed to associate your website with adult oriented material such as pornography, XXX material, Gorean, anything illegal, bigotry, racism, hatred, profanity, mail fraud, pyramid schemes, or any material which may be insulting to another person(s) or company, or depicts the exploitation of minors (children under 18 years of age). No spamming allowed, no harassing, threatening or illegal activities.

phpbber can remove your website account from our server without any warning if we find that you do not follow our Term of Service.

phpbber.com servers may be used for lawful purposes only. Transmission, storage, or distribution of any information, data, or material in violation of any applicable law or regulation is prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to: copyrighted material; trademarks; trade secrets or other intellectual property rights used without proper authorization; material that is obscene, defamatory, constitutes an illegal threat, or violates export control laws.

I suspect some of the descriptions you may be using in England could be termed "pornographic", if they cause anyone to rise to the occasion, so to speak. The definition of the word is, um, "stimulating". I'm afraid to even Google "Gorean", whatever that is. "Obscene" means "offensive" or disgusting, and "have no serious artistic, scientific, or social value", which is obviously one of those objective measures we can all agree on. So if one person in phpbber support is offended or aroused by what you say in the England forum, the entire Board 77 goes poof overnight.

The England forum aside, I like the freedom of having innuendo on the regular threads, and certainly don't want that squelched, and it does not appear to be violating the phpbber TOS. I don't think sexual innuendo is obscene or pornographic. Titillating, maybe.

Wikipedia wrote:

Some people have attempted to introduce the ideas of John Norman's Gor fantasy novels into their own lives, whether in reality, in fantasy, or somewhere in-between. These followers of Norman's novels are called Goreans. Goreans are generally disdained by the mainstream of BDSM practitioners, because the "Gorean" philosophy rejects the ideas of "Safe, Sane and Consensual"/"Risk Aware Consensual Kink".

laureanna,
if we interpret the rules that broadly, simply saying a person had sex could be against the rules. That kind of thinking would have a chilling effect on the whole board.

I have taken that passage from the phpbber's website pretty lightly considering some of the smileys that are available. Many depict sexual acts, smileys giving people the finger, and I believe some of them contain profanity, so I tend to think the phpbber admin isn't exactly concerned with that sort of thing.

I don't think it would be best to leave the England forum here though.

I've yet to see any pornography in the England forum and I would be walking away from the whole MB if there were! The language and innuendo is no worse than I would use in front of my parents and the detail of discussion in the England forum is mild. The very fact that it's separated makes it seem worse than it is.

As an aside-ish-thing: I frequent two British forums on and off (Lush and LivingHistory) and both are far rougher in terms of interaction between members and frank sexual discussion. The only rule I have seen there, and had pointed out by the mods when I asked, is the standard 'you must be over 18' and 'you must not post anything libellous or illegal'.

I'm back (well, d'oh!)

Raced through this and several of the other business threads. Some off the cuff comments:

1. Rufus Carta (the Red Charter) We could then pun that we'll set Rufus onto offenders - but his bark is worse than his bite.

2. Focussing on getting a framework while letting the other things simmer will have two effects: it will get the framework up more expeditiously; but frustration with other things that are not getting attention will foment.

3. England is tame. There's no pornography (by consensus); there's no explicit roleplaying or cybering (by consensus). IMO there's more hoopla about it than it deserves.

I submit (and yes, I'll go read up on the Convention after this and possibly resubmit this there if there's an appropriate place to do so): England should not be visible to ANYONE on registration. That way no strays of illicit bent will be attracted by it and minors (and parents of minors) need have no problems. It will simply not exist for those who do not actively seek registration and permission for that forum.

Those who subsequently enquire can be advised of the nature of the forum (standard statement can be drafted for this purpose) and following appropriate signing in blood (proof of age, waivers with regard to adult subject matter, and clear guidelines of what is acceptable in that forum ie it is not a free for all) access can be granted.

In other words, gated and locked unless very clear understanding is reached.

As to the thread: OT

I want this community opened ASAP - meaning, as soon as the framework is ratified. There will be loopholes and ommission and errors to be made in its implementation but the best way to iron out problems will be to make it operational.