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Member-Owned Board?

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: Member-Owned Board?
Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 2:48 am
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[EDIT - The following posts were split from Wilma's thread about privacy in the Turf. Berhael.]


I just today saw that Steve posted his apology here as well as sending it privately to the three of us. So I will also post my response here.

Steve, first of all thank you for your sincere, heartfelt apology. I have always thought that you are a great guy with a big heart, and that you did not intentionally mean to say something hurtful. Nothing that has happened has lessened my opinion of you, and I don't anticipate that anything will.

That having been said, I must point out that even in your note of apology there were parts that I found hurtful and even disrespectful. In particular, this sentence:
Quote:
My intent was to focus on what I deemed to be a 'perfunctory investigation'
I have to say that after all of the time, thought and energy that we put into the arbitration, I found this comment to be almost as upsetting as the original "whitewash" comment (as well as your original comment about looking for the largest rolling eyes emoticom you could find to express your feelings about our decision, which I thought was the most scornful comment that you made, although I let slide at the time because I wanted to avoid more drama).

As our decision specifically indicates, we did engage in a significant investigation that went beyond simply just looking at the limited written rules in place. In particular we found that a significant portion of the membership (including you yourself) had either explicitly or implicitly confirmed that there was no rule against revealing non-Invite thread discussions in response to wilko's own direct query about that exact subject. We further found that there had never been a clearly established rule of this sort communicated to the membership. Finally, we reviewed the invite forum discussion about the specific rule that was adopted regarding revealing information from that forum and the reasons why that specific rule was adopted. In short, we reviewed all of the OBJECTIVE evidence available. Based on that objective evidence, there was only one conclusion that we could have reasonably come to.

What we did not do (to your disappointment) is rely on the SUBJECTIVE IMPRESSIONS of some members to create a rule that did not previously exist. To do that, and ignore the objective evidence, would truly have been a perfuctory investigation.

My biggest concern about this is what effect it could have on the system that we are trying to set up. Why would anyone be willing to expend the time and energy necessary to serve as a juror if they knew that in doing so they were opening themselves up to disrespectful, scornful comments (which I certainly considered your comments to be, particularly the rolling eye emoticom comment)?

And I must say that I agree that having these type of comments come from the prospective legal owner of the site makes it much worse. I don't buy the argument that it doesn't matter because you are not the legal owner of the site yet. The procedures that we are trying to set up are designed to apply to the open b77.com site. If people see now that the legal owner of that site might react scornfully if he doesn't like their decision, it is extremely likely that that will affect either their willingness to serve, or their decisionmaking process if they do serve as a juror. And that is not acceptible.

I have thought about this alot, and I have a solution to propose. You offered earlier in this thread to sell the domain name to anyone willing to pay two cents for it. I am willing to take you up on that offer. If it is agreeable to people, I will then set up a non-profit corporation to be the legal owner of the site once it opens. The membership of b77 would all be members of the non-profit, and we would be a truly member-owned site. Because the great bulk of the cost of setting up a corporation is the legal fees to do so, the cost will be minimal, since I am willing to to that pro bono. We could consider having a very small, one time membership fee that would cover the cost of the filing fee for incorporating, as well as the ongoing cost of paying for the domain name and any other ongoing costs (or perks) that we would have. We could consider having the people serving as admins be the board of directors, and if the position of mayor is creating perhaps she (or he) could serve as the CEO of the corporation as well. That way the control of the corporation would never stay with just one or just a few people.

What say you? Lidless and everyone else.

Last edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Thu 07 Apr , 2005 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:10 am
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Voronwe, I find that a bold, visionary and inclusive suggestion.

Furthermore, it means that the daffodil would not automatically be pointed at TLE - if there is ever any fallout, legal or otherwise, he would not be left holding the can.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:35 am
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Impy, thanks. That's the main point; no one person would be left holding the can (or be saddled with the responsibility of at least the perception that they were "in charge").


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vison
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:43 am
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A week or so ago I asked if there was any need for financial support here. I'd be thrilled to send 2 cents, or even 5. Canadian, though. :D

Seriously, if there's going to be money spent, we should all share the expense.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:48 am
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I agree, vison.

But this is a way to (literally) give us all ownership of the board, and that can only help the community. We would be accountable to each other, which is what we've been trying for all along here.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 7:37 am
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I honestly do not know what to say here any longer. I too was told that I was joining a board that was experimenting with a "democratic process" designed to eliminate or avoid harsh administrative reactions for controversial posting, and that the intent would be to have an open board at some near point in the future.

I can empathize with those that were here when B77 ws first created, in that it was a closed board, completely private, and that people could use this place to vent about their frustration and hurt. But, I also find it to be completely naive to suggest that those who are now having the biggest issues with the confidentiality are doing so over breaches that occurred seemingly months ago, not since most of us newer members have since been asked and voted in. Thus, I find it somewhat troubling that the newer members are being held as somewhat suspect, when it was the original bunch who seemingly had the "snitch."

Just venting a bit, I have had a very bad day. I, in a more reasonable mood, do agree with Voronwe, and would be happy to support him in his efforts if that is what this place wants to be. I have to admit, I am a bit upset with Ethel's decision, I understand her stance, and although I will not take such drastic measures, it does also matter to me very much so to see this place become open at some point. Otherwise, it seemingly goes against what the philosophy of the board wants to be. (Just my own opinions here, one cannot be private AND democratic, anymore than a restricted club can consider itself to be such. Such a group is either one or the other, there is no middle ground.)

I have no problem with existing threads being shut down or edited or whatever it takes to make an open board possible, but, I will repeat what has been said here so many times before, if one posts something, then one cannot expect that it is 100% private, there is NO such thing in a MB environment, even if the posters agree to its confidential nature. If you have a problem with it, then do not post it. Not trying to be harsh, but that is the best way to avoid any personal problems over something.

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Nin
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 7:39 am
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Voronwë - :love:

Honestly I think Steve's recently expressed ideas go in the same sense.

I used to pay at least one PM.... and so did most who are here. Where's the problem?

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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 7:48 am
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The Watcher, which decision of Ethel's are you upset about? Where?

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The Watcher
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 8:32 am
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Impenitent wrote:
The Watcher, which decision of Ethel's are you upset about? Where?
It is very late here, 3:30 a.m., so I am not positive which thread it is in, I think the one titled "Sorry" started by Ethel, but in any case, she has voluntarily asked to be restricted from this board, until such time that it is open. Her request was honored, and she will no longer be able to read this board, or get PM messages.

I will admit that she was one of the reasons that I was so looking forward to being over here, since I knew that she had stopped posting for the most part on TORC for well over a month prior to my join date, and I had often had very pleasant chats with her both on TORC and in e-mail. She was one of those that I considered a true TORC friend. She still is, and I respect her stance on this, and I suspect she is also just plain burned out on many things.

And, I am sorry, I am in a terrible mood just now. Read my just started thread over in the Symposium and you will understand why. :(

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Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 miles per second, is a cow that has been dropped from a helicopter.

Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

- Dave Barry


Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
Supermassive Black Hole.

- Muse


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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 9:39 am
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Voronwe: :love: :love: :love: You truly are an inspiration!

And also to Lidless :love: :love: :love: for having made that offer in the first place.

Of course I have no problem what-so-ever in helping to chip in. Like Nin, once upon a time I did pay for several PMs somewhere else but I'd be willing to go beyond that if necessary.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 2:32 pm
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I would be perfectly happy to support this board, whether it is mutually owned or privately owned.

I must admit the notion of group ownership is very, very tempting, but I would like to see more info on just how complicated things might get.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 3:16 pm
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I don't think anything approaching the ongoing payments like a TORC PM would be necessary (to be honest, I've often wondered what they needed all that money for, though I'm sure that I am just missing something). One thought that I had was a sliding scale one-time membership fee, say from 0 to $10, so that no one would be denied membership rights because of a lack of an ability to pay

Ax, I honestly don't think that it would make things that complicated. The most complicated part would be trying to coordinate the corporate structure with the structure that we set up in the committee. That might require a fit of finessing, but I am confident that we could do it without a lot of


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 3:22 pm
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without a lot of....


<waits on edge of seat>


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Berhael
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 3:34 pm
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Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
(to be honest, I've often wondered what they needed all that money for, though I'm sure that I am just missing something)
Unless I'm very mistaken, the money from PMs went into buying and maintaining the servers to store the website in. The sheer size of the messageboard, plus the Gallery and Reading Room, require a vast amount of storage space.

However, I'm not an expert in these issues - that's what I've gleaned from conversations over on TORC.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:00 pm
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[digression]

Ber, I saw this smiley and thought of you.

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:D

[/digression]


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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:02 pm
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I've always thought the TORC PM money went to pay for keeping the board online since it's quite busy and quite large. That can get expensive I believe.

A question: let's say at some point there weren't enough contributions to pay the bills...who would take up the slack? I guess I worry about us possibly not having enough contributions. When that happened at TORC, Jon and Ted paid out of their own pocket since they were the owners. But if we don't have specific owners here, what will be done to keep the board online?

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:12 pm
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I don't think actually we'd have to worry too much about not getting enough contributions... rather the opposite. I for one am more than willing to put my vallet where my mouth is and on a regular basis should that be necessary without asking for anything in return.

Besides, if there is more cash than the upkeep will necessitate, we can always expand, have galleries etc. if that is wished by the membership and if not, heck it could go into a 'fund' of sorts for supporting future moots or go to charity.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:25 pm
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B77, Inc. sounds good to me. :)


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:27 pm
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I just sent Voronwe an email about this, but I'll repeat it here for the benefit of everyone.

If we incorporate as a non-prof 'member organization' then there must be a definition of "voting member" which in most organizations is defined as payment of annual membership dues. We don't have 'projects' other than the board, so our membership dues only have to cover the cost of running the place. Papers of incorporation include two years of pro forma budgets, in which we estimate what it will cost to run the board over the next two years, and we set the membership dues accordingly. In our case, these will be very low - nothing like TORC, because we're not using so much bandwidth. Jonathan's financials reported ~$1000/month for bandwidth.

The other expense we would have would be an accountant, because there is a fair amount of paperwork associated with running a corp - but you hand that to someone else to do for an annual fee. That's unlikely to be more than $1000 per year, so about $5 per member for the size membership we expect to have this year.

I've been through this process before and will be glad to work together with Voronwe to iron it out. There is nothing so far in the by-laws the convention is drafting that contradicts becoming a non-prof member organization. We will have to add a few minor provisions, for example, admins would have the added requirement of being voting members I would think, but these are no-brainers and would not take the convention long to consider.

Jn

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TORN
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Posted: Thu 07 Apr , 2005 4:36 pm
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I don't think I have any objections to the ownership arrangement that's being considered -- however, might I suggest a separate thread with a clearly marked title so that people can be made aware of this? Right now, this discussion is buried in a thread with a title that implies continued discussion of a topic that at least some B77ers have become tired of talking about and therefore may not peek in to see what's going on. Thanks.


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