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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sun 08 May , 2005 3:59 pm
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Alandriel's suggestion goes along with the way I have (perhaps crudely) been thinking of our system for a while—that the members are the legislative branch.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 4:26 am
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Jn, I read your reply to mine on Friday 6 May, and humbly apologise for my enthusiastic re-invention of the wheel. :oops:

I will try not to speak out of turn in future - my enthusiasm too often exceeds the capacity of my brain to retain information.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:02 am
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Actually, this is the proper thread for it - Jn, could you please remove my name from the committee list. It seems I'm doing more harm than good.

Prim, you can remove my permissions for this forum.

Thank you :)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:30 am
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Imp,

One talent I do not possess is a talent for coaxing people to stay in a place they do not want to be.

But several committee members wanted to bail out at various points during the last committee, I'm sure, because the discussions were getting too heated or too complicated or were going in a direction that they really, really opposed. They all stuck it out for the sake of the board, and I greatly appreciated that they did so.

You add ideas to all the threads and you show up to vote. As far as I'm concerned you're a valuable member. There is no need for you to leave.

Jn

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:36 am
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Imp, you are not doing more harm than good. You have a lot to contribute to this committee. I am not revoking your privileges just yet, because I hope you will take some time, take a breath, and reconsider.

This is complicated and there's a lot to sort through, but the committee was made large for just that reason. Not everybody contributes every time. Life gets stressful for all of us from time to time.

If you feel that you must leave for your sake, because this is more than you want to take on, then of course you should do so. But for the committee's sake, the best thing you could do is stay.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:55 am
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Jn, no need to coax. :) I'm not acting out of peevishness, but because this faux pas has highlighted for me that I really don't have enough time to properly absorb this material. I skim through it in quick grabs and I miss important things and cause havoc in consequence. I feared it would be so from the beginning, but acted on enthusiastic impulse in accepting the offer to sit in.

You're doing a hard job and don't deserve it to be made even harder by ill-considered input. Taking myself formally out of the committee means you don't need to wait on my half-baked votes. If I really feel the need to say something and suddenly find myself time-rich, I can always contribute via the public thread.

Prim, you are sweet! :)

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 7:55 am
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You know, Impenitent, in fact my situation is not so different from yours, especially time wise - but for the same reason I decide to try to keep on, because I think this situation is close to the majority of the membership and it is important to know how someone who will not have enough time to read everything properly, not enough knowledge of English, not enough devotion for every detail still might react to the charter. I know my reading and participation has flaws, as has yours and probably everybody's (except for Jnyusa and a few other impressive member whom I shall not name, but they are great admins too.....). Yet, I think in the flaws is an important participation too - or at least I try to stick to that belief, for if it were otherwise, my participation would be useless as well.

But what strikes me (or you - you do take part a lot more than me) even through quick reading, those points that tickle - how can you be not sure that they are not exactly those which have to be pointed out? And if you repeat something - maybe it's that very repetition that makes the paragraph all of a sudden far more clearer for another reader?

I don't aim to convince you, the only time I tried to convince someone to stay, I failed miserably, I only try to make you see my point - and the reason why in the end every contribution is IMHO valuable. Why, if not for that reason should I stay?

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Cerin
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 1:06 pm
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Imp

I have reviewed the thread to see what you were referring to, in your mentions of 'reinventing the wheel', 'doing more harm than good', 'faux pas', 'cause havoc', and Jnyusa's job being 'made even harder by ill-considered input.'

The only thing I can conclude after review is that you are describing your agreement with several remarks of mine.

Now if your agreement with remarks that I made can be interpreted thus, and is cause for your departure from the committee, what on earth does it say about my continued presence on the committee, who made the initial comments you were agreeing with?!

If you must leave the committee for doing more harm than good, causing havoc and making Jnyusa's job harder with ill-considered input by merely agreeing with points I made, then surely the greater offense is mine for having made those points in the first place. If you should leave the committee for agreeing with me, then I must surely leave the committee as well.

I hadn't considered my participation here to be detrimental in the ways you described, Imp, but if it is regarded as such by the committee, I sincerely hope someone will tell me, so that I, too, can stop impeding the committee's progress!!


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 1:54 pm
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No, Cerin, of course not, any more than Imp's. You have raised so many valuable points! And when you question something, it's resulted in clarification.

Please, please don't leave. I know if Jn could be here she would say the same to both of you. Please don't leave.

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Cerin
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:00 pm
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Thank you, Prim.

I do not intend to leave unless asked, :D but I am hoping the kinder, gentler Imp will re-think her decision.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:04 pm
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So am I.

I hate to lose conscientious people from the committee, especially if it's their consciences making them insist on leaving. How does that leave us better off? Or better able to put this system together?

Thank you for clarifying, Cerin. :)

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:06 pm
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Impy--

Stay. We all do things that don't seem productive now and again. If nothing else, the discussions improved people's understanding of where we are in the process (and that gets more important as we get in deeper, trust me).

All--

I just suggested in the business room that if we go to a sponsorship system for the England forum, and someone has issues with a sponsored person coming in there, that it be handled as a standard dispute. However, that does imply that perhaps posters under 18 should be excluded from involvement with any jury dealing with England issues in general. Thoughts?

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:08 pm
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I will be very upset if either Impy or Cerin left the committee. :neutral:


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TORN
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:20 pm
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Impenitent wrote:
Taking myself formally out of the committee means you don't need to wait on my half-baked votes.
Please, Imp, as if any of my votes have even come within ten feet of the oven!!!

In my view, all discussion of all ideas is good, so long as the train does not get de-railed. But I don't think it's the obligation of the person asking a question, or making a point, for ensuring that the train stays on track, but for the committee in general to press on. So that if a point that's already been decided is re-raised, the re-raising of the point shouldn't be a problem, so long as we don't let that re-raising stop the progress.

So, what I would expect if I raise a point that's already been settled, someone would simply let me know that this is the case and I wouldn't have an expectation that my raising the issue would suddenly cause it to be re-opened. In that case, I just wasn't there in time -- for other issues, I may be there in time to provide input. I don't think we need to have every single person on the committee fully up to speed on every facet of every issue -- heck, US voters aren't, members of Congress certainly are not and (as I'm about to experience this week as my organization holds its quarterly board meeting) corporate board members are not.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:09 pm
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Ax: I just suggested in the business room that if we go to a sponsorship system for the England forum, and someone has issues with a sponsored person coming in there, that it be handled as a standard dispute.

We're addressing this next on the agenda, under penalties. The committee that did Article 2 did include the following under Special Powers of Admins: that if two complaints are received about the way someone is posting in TOE, the admins can suspend the person's posting rights in TOE and then hold a hearing to determine the final outcome. Same goes for the RP forum.

So I think it does fall to us to discuss those penalties ... I started to draft an outline for the penalty paragraph but it was getting too complex so I am looking now for a simpler way to approach the issue. The basic idea is to define what can be penalized (TORN;s concern) and define what is the worst a jury can do to a member.

Imp, Cerin, TORN et al - the tussles we have here? Pf! This is nothing. Don't think twice about it. All collaborative processes have this push and pull. The only thing I really lose sleep over is whether posters will express their ideas and show up to vote.

BTW - Teh Baby HAS arrived - a few minutes before noon. Gabriel Alexander. Perfect in every way. And my daughter and son-in-law are doing fine.

Jn

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:16 pm
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:cheers :clap: :banana: :cheerleader: :horse: <--Teh Committee, hard at work in your absence.

Congratulations!

And a beautiful name, too.

Last edited by Primula_Baggins on Mon 09 May , 2005 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TORN
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:30 pm
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Jenny-in-the-USA wrote:
BTW - Teh Baby HAS arrived - a few minutes before noon. Gabriel Alexander. Perfect in every way. And my daughter and son-in-law are doing fine.
Congrats!!! . . . although I certainly hope you did not let that routine event distract you from your work here!!!


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Nin
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 9:25 pm
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:D:D:D:D

Yes, a beautiful name....

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Cerin
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 9:48 pm
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Congratulations on Teh Baby!!!

Yes, such a beautiful name.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 10:07 pm
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Thank you, everyone!

This was the first birth I got to observe because I couldn't see over the mountain when my own daughters were born, and they didn't allow 'extras' in the room during my daughter's first delivery.

It was so bizarre to watch a PERSON come out of my daughter's body, even though I know that she came out of mine. :Q It's easier to believe when you're doing it than when you're watching it.

But I still contend that there has to be a better way than this to make new people. A marsupial pouch would be a big improvement, imo. One with a zipper, maybe. We should start working on that right away.

Jn

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