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Bike Racks: VOTE ENDED

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 2:28 pm
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I think Jn shows us that in the results, TORN—note that she lists a total of 17 votes for each. And it is a system of weighted results, but in this vote the majority's first choice won.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 2:53 pm
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TORN,

In instant runoff voting, we first count the first choice of every voter. If there is no simple majority for any one option, then we eliminate the option that got the least votes, and take those voters' second choice. We iterate this process, removing the option with the least votes and redistributing those voters' votes to their next choice on the list until we arrive at a simple majority for one option.

I usually show the final count for the top two options. In this case, on one vote I showed the third option as well because the voter had not ranked all of the options. Voters sometimes abstain on some options for various reasons, and if none of the winning options are ranked, then I show instead what that voter's first choice was.

Jn

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TORN
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 5:01 pm
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Thanks -- wasn't disputing the results, BTW -- I had not realized that this was the method being used, but that's neither here nor there (and if you explained it before, then my bad).

Also BTW (feel free to ignore, and again not to dispute the results), I guess this method is used sometimes, but I wonder if it has the potential for an odd skewing of results, as those whose opinions are "outliers" from the rest of the crowd can in essence get an extra shot at influencing the results as compared to those whose opinions are closer to the mainstream -- hmmmmm -- (and given that I viewed myself as more of an outlier, perhaps I myself was the beneficiary of this second shot voting) -- I bet this has been studied before, but I'm too lazy to track it down . . . oh well

EDIT TO ADD:

Although, as a pseudo-quasi-academic matter, I still would be interested in seeing the raw data of first place votes just to compare them to the final results -- as a bit of a curiosity, really (I realize this wasn't what I originally asked for, but a messageboard can change its mind from time to time, no?).


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 6:42 pm
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TORN -

I'll be glad to share the runoffs with you. Cerin and I had a different count for one of the votes, and I need to go back now and see if someone changed their vote after I recorded it to confirm which count is correct. It didn't change the final result, btw, but I'm OCD about the voting and want the counts to be correct. I need to do that first, and then copy the IRV results onto something that can be imbedded in an email and send it to you. So, give me a bit of time to get to that.

Faramond and I had a discussion about the ups and downs of IRV when we did the very first committee vote ... the results are not skewed by going to second choices, unless you assume that people would vote differently if the runoff was not instantaneous. But that's the same as saying that if we voted twice we would get two different results, which is possible but not relevant.

One must be careful in one aspect, however. Say that out of 17 votes, 7 of the people have a first choice of A but that's not a simple majority. 5 have a first choice of C and 5 have a first choice of D. By luck, everyone's second choice is B. So when we eliminate either C or D, suddenly B goes from 0 to 5 and it is a contender. If we eliminate C and D, B goes from 0 to 10 and wins the vote. It is not the first choice of anyone but the second choice of everyone and wins for that reason. Is this good or bad?

Faramond and I were discussing first of all whether this could happen. He argued that it could not, because once B=0 it cannot appear again. But according to my understanding of IRV it could happen because you record the votes in order of rank, and an option could in theory accumulate enough second-rank votes to challenge the nearest contender.

I don't know what the "proper" procedure is in this case, and you're right, someone has probably studied it. So far, for us, it's only a hypothetical. Except for one tie on the Article 3 votes, all of our IRV's have been clean. Some were darn close, and especially when members don't vote I am uncomfortable with an option that wins by only one vote, but with pick-one voting where a plurality wins, you can also get ties, and sometimes something will win that the majority of people really, really do not want.

Jn

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 7:00 pm
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Ok - the count posted on the previous page is now official.

The text that now appears in the first post of this thread is what will go into the Charter for ratification.

I may not get to the redesign of the stickies today because I have to teach soon, but I'll do it when I get home tonight if not before.

The thread will not be locked until you've had a chance to confer on the revised Sticky.

Thanks, everyone.

Jn

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Cerin
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 7:55 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
The thread will not be locked until you've had a chance to confer on the revised Sticky.
I'm sorry, which sticky is this?


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TORN
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 8:25 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
TORN -

I'll be glad to share the runoffs with you. Cerin and I had a different count for one of the votes, and I need to go back now and see if someone changed their vote after I recorded it to confirm which count is correct. It didn't change the final result, btw, but I'm OCD about the voting and want the counts to be correct. I need to do that first, and then copy the IRV results onto something that can be imbedded in an email and send it to you. So, give me a bit of time to get to that.
Please, if it's any more trouble than just cutting and pasting an existing table, don't bother -- it's not that important -- more a curiosity.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 3:01 am
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Cerin -

When the Outside Forum was opened, a sticky thread was placed in the Bike Racks and the Jury Room explaining how the forums were used, based on things members had discussed in the long-locked Moderator Decision Thread. The stickies were left up for people to discuss/modify, but once the forum was open the discussion pretty much died.

Now that the convention is considering these procedures, I'm revising the Sticky threads to reflect the procedure we've recommended. If the procedure is not ratified in full, I'll update the stickies again until we have a chance to revisit the tabled issues.

TORN -

Well, it's a bit more than that because my spreadsheet format won't go directly into an email, but I've already done it, so you can read it at your convenience.

Jn

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TORN
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 3:20 am
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Jnyusa wrote:
Well, it's a bit more than that because my spreadsheet format won't go directly into an email, but I've already done it, so you can read it at your convenience.
Thank you for taking the trouble. :) :) :)


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 4:06 am
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You're welcome, TORN. :)

*****

Meanwhile, I've revised the Sticky Thread for the top of the Bike Racks Forum to conform to our decisions here. It is in the first post of this thread, right underneath the approved text, so that the comparison is as easy as it might be under the circumstances. (sorry for prior misdirection)

Please say whether it reads alright to you, or whether you would like to see changes. Remember that a person entering the forum does not read the charter. What they are looking for is a list of instructions, and that is what the Sticky is supposed to give them.

Jn

Last edited by Jnyusa on Fri 06 May , 2005 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 3:04 pm
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No problems here.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 3:20 pm
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No problems here, either, Jn. Looks good.

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 5:19 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
Meanwhile, I've revised the Sticky Thread for the top of the Bike Racks Forum to conform to our decisions here. It is in the third post of this thread, right underneath the approved text, so that the comparison is as easy as it might be under the circumstances.
Do you want to change this to read, "in the first post of this thread"?

I have a few suggestions for the sticky.

Would "In addition" be an improvement over "Or" here:

This is a Read-and-Write Forum. Anyone may start a thread here for resolving a disagreement. Or, if posts in another thread have become quarrelsome or disruptive or seem to be on the brink of violating member rights, you may find that an administrator has split the thread and moved the disruptive posts here until the problems are resolved.

This is a Read-and-Write Forum. Anyone may start a thread here for resolving a disagreement. In addition, if posts in another thread have become quarrelsome or disruptive or seem to be on the brink of violating member rights, you may find that an administrator has split the thread and moved the disruptive posts here until the problems are resolved.


I really enjoyed the directness of this sentence (embedded in paragraph) in the original sticky. I thought it was very effective.

from original sticky:
This is a Read-and-Write Forum. Anyone may start a thread here for resolving a disagreement. Posters who are not directly involved in these threads should stay out of them. Those who are involved, remember that everyone can read what you are posting.

Here is a suggestion of how to incorporate it into the current paragraph:

current paragraph:
The Bike Racks are intended for use by members directly involved in a dispute and whomever they designate as participants. Uninvolved members should consider carefully before posting comments that they consider to be helpful without the permission of discussants. Sometimes even the most benevolent intervention serves to exacerbate the situation when it is made without the parties' consent or desire. Administrators have the right to delete the posts of non-designated members who enter the thread.

suggested change:
The Bike Racks are intended for use by members directly involved in a dispute and whomever they designate as participants. Posters who are not directly involved in these threads should stay out of them. Consider carefully before posting comments you consider to be helpful without the permission of discussants. Sometimes even the most benevolent intervention serves to exacerbate the situation when it is made without the parties' consent or desire. Administrators have the right to delete the posts of non-designated members who enter the thread.


In addition, I was having a little trouble with the construction of this sentence (embedded in paragraph):

current paragraph:
The Bike Racks are intended for use by members directly involved in a dispute and whomever they designate as participants. Uninvolved members should consider carefully before posting comments that they consider to be helpful without the permission of discussants. Sometimes even the most benevolent intervention serves to exacerbate the situation when it is made without the parties' consent or desire. Administrators have the right to delete the posts of non-designated members who enter the thread.

This suggestion is also incorporating the previous suggestion:

suggested change (plus previous suggested change):
The Bike Racks are intended for use by members directly involved in a dispute and whomever they designate as participants. Posters who are not directly involved in these threads should stay out of them. Consider carefully before posting comments without the permission of discussants, even if motivated by a desire to be helpful. Sometimes even the most benevolent intervention serves to exacerbate the situation when it is made without the parties' consent or desire. Administrators have the right to delete the posts of non-designated members who enter the thread.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 5:27 pm
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Cerin,

I'm going to ask Voronwe to look at that text and offer his approval or disagreement since he wrote it and we voted to include it in the stickies.

I agree that the original direct language had a certain elegance, but it was really your suggestion (and the member vote of approval) that we refer to this as an "intention" rather than a "restriction" which made the "stay out" rather inappropriate language, I thought.

Regarding the use of "in addition" in place of "or" I will edit the text to your preference.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 5:43 pm
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Quote:
I agree that the original direct language had a certain elegance, but it was really your suggestion (and the member vote of approval) that we refer to this as an "intention" rather than a "restriction" which made the "stay out" rather inappropriate language, I thought.
Yes, I agree with this and prefer the "current paragraph" to the "suggested change." I don't think that we approved flat out telling people to stay out of the discussion.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 5:45 pm
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I agree, Voronwe. We left it to the conscience of the poster, as we must do in most cases anyway...

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 5:54 pm
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Ah, well.

I'll just indulge myself one more time, then:

This is a Read-and-Write Forum. Anyone may start a thread here for resolving a disagreement. Posters who are not directly involved in these threads should stay out of them.

:D


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truehobbit
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 7:30 pm
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Well, Cerin, that's clear and simple - but it's also a bit rude, I think.

I like the new sticky text a lot, especially the important bits marked in red.

However I do have two or three quibbles, and one of them I hope you won't take personally, Jny.

I don't very much like that it says "good luck" at the end - sounds a bit cynical to me.

And, yes, you wrote the text - but your signature underneath makes it look as if it was your personal message to the posters, and it's not.
Maybe the bike racks sticky could be posted by the Administrator ID, and at the bottom it could say: Many thanks to Jnyusa for putting this together - or something to that effect.

Lastly, I think the admin names should have a more logical order.
Either chronologically, for example: Prim (oldest), V, laureanna, Nin (May to July), truehobbit (May to June)
Or alphabetically.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 7:50 pm
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TH: I won't take it personally at all if this is posted under an Admin signature. To tell you the truth, I feel rather funny seeing my face on all those 'official' posts, but not to sign it would have been disingenuous I thought.

Lastly, I think the admin names should have a more logical order.
Either chronologically... Or alphabetically.


Yes, you're right. The original list was chronological and I messed it up when I edited in the last vote. I hope that someone other than I will be responsible for updating all the admin lists in the future. It's easier to do all of them at the same time with a copy/paste (I would think) than to have different people responsible for different forum lists.

I don't very much like that it says "good luck" at the end - sounds a bit cynical to me.

Awww, I like this! :( It's like 'please' and 'thank you' - makes it more personal. It certainly wasn't meant cynically, but if people have taken it that way then it should be removed.

Jn

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truehobbit
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 8:47 pm
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Jny, thanks - it's not that I object to having the post made by you, I just thought your signature under the text looked too personal - so I thought if it's a neutral poster ID, the post could say thanks to you for writing the text without making it look like it's only you speaking. :)
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It's like 'please' and 'thank you' - makes it more personal. It certainly wasn't meant cynically, but if people have taken it that way then it should be removed.
I don't know what others think, maybe it's just me. :)

I didn't think it was meant to be cynical, but it nevertheless amused me in a cynical way, because why do you need luck for discussing something in the bike racks? So, it sounded a bit like smirking on people being in trouble.

I also like having something like please and thank you - hmmh, actually I think "thank you" would do - or: "thanks for your cooperation"? Can't think of much at the moment, I'm afraid - let's just hear what others say. :)

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