board77

Frelga wrote:

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No, it means we care to have the board the way we want it, rather than trying to please everybody.

I agree that trying to please everybody is futile. And I think I know what you intended to say. AND I know you didn't mean it that way, only... it sounds just a tiny bit like something I've heard before, somewhere else.

I didn't mind Ted_and_Jonathan saying, "We'll run our board however we please and if you don't like it, leave". That's perfectly okay with me. What I didn't like was the inconsistency between saying they wanted one thing (the board ran per their TOS) and doing another (doing whatever the hell they wanted). As long as we're upfront and honest about our "This is what we are and this is how we do things" statement, then there is no issue imo. Indeed, if some don't like it, those some will have to choose to leave.

I agree, yovargas. But is the closed board what we are? Err... OK, so it is. Let me rephrase it. Is the closed board what we want to be?

This reminds me of something I've asked in Manwe once. On an invitation only, member-run and potentially member-owned board, who's we? And which we are so much more important than the other we that we can tell the rest of we to leave if we don't like it?

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I am not sure about starting the poll tomorrow. I would like other people's input about this first. It would not be good to finally run this poll only to have the result be disputed because we didn't dot all the i's. On the other hand, maybe this is a separate case not bound by that rule.

Let's let the full ten days of discussion run. Then we can be sure that we haven't rushed into something that is so important.

Frelga, thanks for asking the question I was expecting to be raised from my previous post! (Because I found myself puzzled by it, right after I had posted.)

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On an invitation only, member-run and potentially member-owned board, who's we? And which we are so much more important than the other we that we can tell the rest of we to leave if we don't like it?

I had spoken of "we" vs "everybody", and immediately after posting, that didn't seem to make sense to me. So I had to give it some thought.

By "we" I meant this community, the existing one. And I know that we can't please everybody even in this community. So when I speak of what "we" want, I mean something like "the greatest happiness of the greatest number" (or whatever the correct quote is).

You could see it in the imaginary result to V's poll, which I posted a while ago to explain how it works:
I had 80% of the voters happy to open at one point, and I said this meant I'd be ready to go along with that and open that point chosen by the 80%.

But read the other way round, it also means that I'm ready to displease 20% members by following that vote!

20% is more than a handful! I would very much hope that these 20% would not be so unhappy about this decision that it would cause them to leave, because ideally I want everybody to be happy - but if they left because of this, I'd have to accept that (you may call it "shrug it off").
It's not nice, but I'd make 20% less happy with the board, in order to make 80% happier.
However, I would NOT make 20% less happy with the board, in order to make two or three people happy with the board, who left or declined an invitation because the board is closed!

And I don't even think I'm shrugging it off that people are unhappy - I just realise that you can't please all.
Sorry to quote your words for my case, Prim, but:

Prim, in the Jury Room wrote:

"Unsolvable" conflicts do solve themselves eventually, in my experience. People calm down, usually. Sometimes someone leaves, which is unfortunate

It is unfortunate - but if someone is too unhappy to stay, "shrugging it off" is all we can do, I'm afraid.

TORN, I've been on the committee from the start, and I'm doing some adminning now. I hardly have time for chatting here myself. I've been itching to contribute to some of the symposium threads, too, for example, but I just don't get round to it.
Ok, maybe I'm such a political animal and enjoy that kind of debate, but I, for one, don't feel at all like you. Just sayin'.

You're probably right, Voronwe. And it won't delay the opening itself, since that will almost certainly depend on when we get through some part of the constitutional process. All it means is waiting a bit longer to know the answer.

Edit: Hobby, people who've left the board because it's closed are far from the only ones who are unhappy with it being closed.

In your theoretical model, keeping the board closed to make the 20% happy would make 80% of the members unhappy.

TH, may I say that I'm very relieved that you didn't take my (clumsily worded) post personally. It's the most wondrous thing about b77 that we can express and discuss diverging views with goodwill and intelligence, and I hope we can preserve that.

I think I am in agreement with you, if "we" means "the significant majority of posters as measured by a binding poll." Like any democracy, the board solicits input from its citizens, takes things to vote, and then we are all expected to abide by results nsensus. Actually, b77 does it better than most democracies.

I find those ten days awfully long, but I tend to find everything awfully long recently.

First, I really wanted to say how much I agree with TORN. Although at moments I find it passionating, the charter process is becoming very, very long and is getting IMHO sometimes lost in details. If I have posted so little in the latest discussions, it is partly because they were hard to follow for me, but also because I want to avoid even further input in order to progress and make decisions.

Secondly I also fear that the length of the process can harm the potential of this board. If not many people have left, as said, many have limited their participation. For a small board like this, it is dangerous, especially if the silence starts to spread around. It is also becoming increasingly frustrating to see some people excluded.

For quite a while, I thought like Mummpizz, but I have now reached the point, where I need to see the light at the end of the tunnel and have a goal - and in this case it means a delay and priorities - I am ready to work day and night on the parts of the constitution that need to be ready for opening.

I'm tired.... and I should not be here.

truehobbit wrote:

TORN, I've been on the committee from the start, and I'm doing some adminning now. I hardly have time for chatting here myself. I've been itching to contribute to some of the symposium threads, too, for example, but I just don't get round to it.
Ok, maybe I'm such a political animal and enjoy that kind of debate, but I, for one, don't feel at all like you. Just sayin'.

I'm pretty much of a political junkie myself -- heck, I almost took a job last year with a big-shot political lawyer who was trying to tempt me by promising to parade me around the Republican convention in NYC last year to meet all his pals (he was their lawyer for the convention -- he picked the wrong party to represent, however, from my perspective -- I turned him down for other reasons). I think a big part of my personal boredom comes from the fact that my day-job is writing rules, and I've been at it for 8 years, so I guess I prefer not to write rules during my off hours.

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I find those ten days awfully long, but I tend to find everything awfully long recently.

I could just delay it one more day, and then have it run until 5/17. That would still be ten days with two weekends inclusive. Let's see if anything else comes up over the next 24 hours that still needs to be discussed. If not, and if Alandriel gives her blessing (:)), I'll start it then.

I don't see the need to wait much longer...no 10 days of discussion needed for me but I do agree with running the poll for the appropriate amount of time.

I'm so ready for all this mess to be over with so we can just worry about posting and not all this legal junk or making of rules. I'm seriously sick of it.

Anyway, perhaps you can just edit the global announcement you have up now Voronwe? Especially since we don't need any more announcements or stickies...the place is starting to get a bit crowded with them again!

Frelga, thanks! And I'm glad we agree on the definition.

Primula_Baggins wrote:

Edit: Hobby, people who've left the board because it's closed are far from the only ones who are unhappy with it being closed.

In your theoretical model, keeping the board closed to make the 20% happy would make 80% of the members unhappy.

But I didn't say that, quite the opposite!

It's because the 80% would be more unhappy with the situation - in order to please them - that I'd risk disgruntling 20% - the thing is that I would not do it for those who people keep citing as a good reason to open, those who have left or have declined an invitation because the board is closed and who I can't number at more than two or three!

I can't tell who is unhappy now - but, yes, if 80% vote to open sooner, then I have to conclude that those are unhappy with opening later. Which is why I say we should respond to that.

However, I don't see the board stagnating, or people tiring - I think we are posting at a ferocious speed, and if that slackens a little maybe that just means that people need to catch their breath once in a while.

I do think that the convention is much slower than we thought it would be (and that's one good reason to change the plan and have that vote) - because we are discussing details that I'd never thought would be necessary to discuss. But I can't plan that sort of thing, I don't have the organisational talent for that, so I couldn't have foreseen it. I just accept what people say we need to discuss, and when we get to a vote, it always looks like a good thing we included all the stuff I'd never have thought of myself.
If people get tired of it, that's sad, but I don't really understand it, to be honest.
However, there is only soandso much you can do at a time, and if we haven't so much as started on the next chapter, I think it's because all our energy is currently bound up here!

TORN has sniffed it but there may be a more fundamental problem. What if, once the community-formation process formally concludes, those posters whose participatory passion breathed life into their creation struggle to become energized by a new “common cause”? Board77 owes its existence to that community-formation process—viewed in its entirety—originating as it did within TORC. There is always “mere chat” of course, but there are those among you who will be disappointed if this community does not prove to be (or at least to appear to be) something more than another chat room.

It has been difficult to find a place (and “place” in cyber space is all that separates my virtual existence from the abyss) for dhspgt to post. I started a thread, my one and only, and I called attention to my plight by naming it: “no where else to post.” Given my nature and certainly based on my posting history, I will never be a frequent participant, but I have looked around for a place to stand—even if for a moment. When I came in the house several people ran off to other rooms to find me a chair. No one has returned yet, but I hear them in the house somewhere. It sounds like they are building me a chair, and it must be a wonderful chair because they certainly seem to be putting a lot of effort into building it, but I am afraid that when they get my chair built we won’t have much to talk about other than the chair.

I am certain it will be a beautiful, sturdy chair.

When the chair is finished, and you are sitting in it, dhspgt, you may certainly choose the subject, and we will gratefully attend.

There is hope. (I seem to be saying that a lot lately.) We are expediting the chair construction process, in hopes that we will all have splendid chairs and, by then, much to say.

Hey! dhspgt is in the Business Forum!

Well, I for one can't wait to have time for the Hall of Fire. When the darn chair is finished I'm sure not going to talk about it any more.

Jn

Voronwe wrote:

Let's let the full ten days of discussion run. Then we can be sure that we haven't rushed into something that is so important.

That of course would be ideal

Nin wrote:

I find those ten days awfully long….I also fear that the length of the process can harm the potential of this board. If not many people have left, as said, many have limited their participation. For a small board like this, it is dangerous, especially if the silence starts to spread around. It is also becoming increasingly frustrating to see some people excluded.

Yes it is dangerous, I agree.... BUT, I think you're making too much out of that danger. I remember very well how it used to be somewhere else: frantic periods.. and then much more quiet periods and people used to say - something is wrong. It was just a lull, people beeing busy in RL. We're not in 'grave' danger - but we do need to put a bit of speed onto the constitutional pannel if at all possible and get it done.

I'm more of the opposite view: if we do things too fast, then we run also a danger of not letting people's voices be heard. And that is more of a 'danger' than anything else. This thread was started on a Monday. Quite a number of people here don't get to look around until the weekend (which starts tomorrow). Just saying

Voronwe wrote:

I could just delay it one more day, and then have it run until 5/17. That would still be ten days with two weekends inclusive. Let's see if anything else comes up over the next 24 hours that still needs to be discussed. If not, and if Alandriel gives her blessing ( ), I'll start it then.

Waiting just one more day, till Saturday and then start the poll does not really make a difference Voronwe. If you're willing to wait (and I would welcome that indeed) then wait until after the weekend and open the poll on Monday. Yes I'm aware by doing so and by sticking to the rules to let the poll run over 2 weekends, that would mean the poll would actually run longer than the stipuled 10 days, because it will have to include 2 weekends. But is that such a bad thing?
As I said above, the above 'dangers' don't seem all that grave to me but I really do fear the danger of not giving enough time for people to see this and input.

And Voronwe, you don't need my blessing I'm no more than any one of you here and have just one opinion, though I do appreciate it when people take it into account and give it some thought.

_______________
Resident witchâ„¢

May is donoughts and trebuchets month

Hi dhspgt!

dhspgt wrote:

What if, once the community-formation process formally concludes, those posters whose participatory passion breathed life into their creation struggle to become energized by a new “common cause”?

Short question: is there a grammar error in there - is it supposed to mean "do become"? Or, if not, what is it supposed to mean?

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Given my nature and certainly based on my posting history, I will never be a frequent participant, but I have looked around for a place to stand—even if for a moment. When I came in the house several people ran off to other rooms to find me a chair. No one has returned yet, but I hear them in the house somewhere. It sounds like they are building me a chair, and it must be a wonderful chair because they certainly seem to be putting a lot of effort into building it, but I am afraid that when they get my chair built we won’t have much to talk about other than the chair.

Well, having never posted with you before, it would certainly be difficult for me to find or build you a chair that suits you - but I'd hope that you'd have a look around the house for yourself, and see if you can find one, or if not, let people know what kind of chair you need - or, best idea of all maybe - get out in the yard, fetch some material, and start building it yourself! How does that sound?

It's a nice image, that one, and one that can be expanded.

Yes, I assume that once the chair is done, there'll be some talk about it: will it hold if someone with a lot of weight sits on it? will it break if someone tips it over? or even throws it across the room in a fit of anger?

But we also intend to go into mass-production with those chairs, so we'd hope they'd soon not be so remarkable any more.

And seeing that we might have got the chair ready first thing and ages ago if we didn't have so many other chatty things or deep things to talk about, I trust that we'll keep having things to talk about other than the chair.

I don't mind sitting on the floor if I can still listen in on your conversations and say a few words now and then!

I decided to go ahead and put the poll up, since there seems to be no more objections are discussion about how to do the poll. It is here.

I will sticky that thread and unsticky this one.

*brings a cushion and a drink for Wampuscat* :cheers

Thanks, truehobbit! And quite a comfy cushion it is! :cheers