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The Last Discussion Evah About Opening board77?

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tinwe
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 3:59 am
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Impenitent wrote:
I think that's the idea Tinwe; that there will be a Summary and those interested can go to the full Charter for clarification. I read that somewhere but can't remember where. Certainly there was enthusiastic support for that idea from many.
Excellent! I think that should go a long way to allay some people’s concerns that the charter is becoming too wordy. The length is necessary, I agree, but it can be a little frightening at first glance.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 4:17 am
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Voronwe: Since you set that agenda yourself, I don't think it requires anyone else permission to change it other then you.

I personally don't care what order we do it in. The only reason we're doing Admins, Disputes and Member Rights first is because part of that had already been done by the members and I thought this was the fastest route to opening the board.

tinwe: I haven’t seen anything in the proposed charter that addresses this issue

Right now you're only voting on two articles of the charter. There are more, which we are still writing. One section of the agenda is for by-laws that the members have not yet addressed, and binding polls are included there. But I see no rush to get there because this poll is the only one I've seen so far where its binding nature has been at question. If members agree that 80% would be binding, then so be it.

We will specify in the charter, eventually, the votes needed for an amendment and any future poll that has to be binding to be acted upon.

Would it be possible to have a similar summary for each section of the charter...

We will most certainly do that. We'll probably call that Summary of the Charter, and the whole charter will be called The Charter. :)

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 4:38 am
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Okay, I will change the suggested poll options accordingly. I think it makes sense to discuss the Mission Statement et al. directly after member's rights and responsibilities anyway. Thanks for being flexible.

Edit: Here is the new suggested poll language:
Quote:
Quote:
"Assuming that any issues regarding what to do about the Thinking of England forum when the board opens, and whether non-members will be able to read the board when it opens, are resolved separately, I would like to see board77 open:

1. As soon as the charter provisions regarding the admins are ratified,
2. As soon as the charter provisions regarding dispute resolution are ratified,
3. As soon as the charter provisions regarding members rights and responsibilities are ratified,
4. As soon as the charter provisions regarding the mission statement, purpose and goals,
5. As soon as the charter provisions regarding the office of the Mayor are ratified,
6. As soon as the charter is completely finished and ratified, including the provisions regarding the ownership of the board.
7 I do not want board77 to open in the foreseeable future."

The purpose of this poll would be to determine at what point a sufficient percentage of the membership to constitute a consensus wants to open. Each successive choice in the poll (or at least the first six) is scheduled to occur after the previious choice and the votes for each choice would carry over to the next choice. I have suggested that 80% would constitute a consensus. So if 50 total people voted, and 10 voted for the first option, and 15 each voted for the second and third options, a consensus would have been reached for that third option, since 40 votes out of 50 is 80%.
[I'll post this new poll language in the first post as well]


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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 6:59 am
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As long as this poll runs for 10 days including 2 weekends I'm fine with it :) However, to be totally in line with the rules we have so far, this poll should continue 10 days after the discussion was started.

Sorry Voronwe, but I think it's really important to go with what we've established before. The first binding poll ever is the current ratification for the Admins and that was 10 days discussion followed by 10 days poll (incl. two weekends).

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 7:04 am
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Viv, that's still the plan. If it starts on Friday, May 6 at 12:01 a.m. GMT and goes until Monday, May16 at 1201 a.m. GMT that's 10 days, including two full weekends.

So no need to be sorry. :)


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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 10:06 am
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
At least some did, Holby. And some who were invited and turned down the invitation did so because we're closed.
But that's their problem, don't you think?

For example, I haven't registered on Ethel's board, even though I know of it now, because I have other issues with the place right now - and I wouldn't expect Ethel to remove the things I have a problem with, just so that I can feel good to join.

Edit: different question

Irrespective of the question of when to open - is there still an open question of how to open?
(Asking this of the whole group, but especially of original members who might remember early decisions - I can't remember anything about that right now.)

Because I was thinking that if there are things to discuss about how to open, that is going to cost us some time, too.
We need to be prepared to get a lot of additional stuff to discuss in the middle of the charter-discussion if we decide to open at any time while we are still working at it.

That doesn't mean I don't want that to happen, I just want people to be aware of that.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 1:52 pm
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Practically speaking, people who aren't looking for us are unlikely to find us. Throwing the gates wide open will be little different than letting the current backlog of invitees in.

Long term, who knows? That's what makes the future so much fun...you don't know what's going to happen. :)

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 1:55 pm
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Hobby, if we keep dismissing people leaving this board for a cause we can correct as "their problem," we're saying we don't care about the health of the board—let alone caring about the people who are leaving or refusing to come, which many of us do.

We are not a large board, and people leaving is a serious symptom that we should not ignore.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 3:50 pm
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No, it means we care to have the board the way we want it, rather than trying to please everybody.

How many people left because the board is closed? One or two?

As I said, I'm not opposed to having a vote to open earlier, if that will soothe people here who are edgy, in the hope it'll help keep the atmosphere right here ok.

But IMO, if someone refuses to post here because of the nature of the board, they are putting politics above people just as much as we might be said to do - I'm not saying we are right, but they aren't right either - it's not like anyone who points a finger because this is a closed board is on the side of right and justice or something.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 3:55 pm
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Alandriel wrote:
Sorry Voronwe, but I think it's really important to go with what we've established before. The first binding poll ever is the current ratification for the Admins and that was 10 days discussion followed by 10 days poll (incl. two weekends).
I wanted to revisit this question because I realize that what Viv is saying is that she thinks there should 10 days of discussion before the poll opens. I disagree.

First of all, it is untrue to say that the current ratification for the Admin section of the charter is the first binding poll that we ever had. We had a binding poll to determine that revealing information in the invite forum should lead to the person's permissions for that forum to be suspended. We had binding polls regarding inviting each and every "aftercomer". And we also decided to end invites and begin the convention process. None of these things required a ten day discussion and then a poll.

The ten day discussion period relates specifically to the ratification of the charter. It was provided for in order to give people an opportunity to fully digest the portion at issue and object to it before an up or down vote is held on that section. That reasoning simply does not apply here. I don't think it is necessary to wait another week before starting the poll.

Hobby, yes I agree that there are issues as to "how to open" that are separate from the question of when to open. Two of those issues we have already mentioned: what to do about TOE and whether or not non-members will be able to read the board after we open. Do you think I should change the poll language so that it reads:
Quote:
Assuming that all issues regarding how to open are resolved separately, I would like to see board77 open: ...


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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 4:36 pm
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Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
Hobby, yes I agree that there are issues as to "how to open" that are separate from the question of when to open. Two of those issues we have already mentioned: what to do about TOE and whether or not non-members will be able to read the board after we open. Do you think I should change the poll language so that it reads:
Quote:
Assuming that all issues regarding how to open are resolved separately, I would like to see board77 open: ...
Voronwe, hmmh, yes, I think phrasing it that way would be a good idea, it might remind people that there are issues that need discussing. :)

Because that's really all I'm getting at: I'm afraid that people will get all enthusiastic now about opening, only to be then surprised that it's not as easy as they thought and be just as unhappy again.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 4:46 pm
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Good, I like that better too.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 5:05 pm
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Our charter is making some decisions for us—for example, as Voronwe pointed out to me, we will still have to have a system of permissions rather than throwing the doors open and making all the forums readable to all. If we did that, it would be impossible to have a Jury Room where people can read but not post, or to confine someone with an invalid email address to the Bike Racks.

This actually gives us more flexibility in things like keeping the England forum private, and with group permissions I don't think it will be much harder to administer.

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TORN
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 7:24 pm
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truehobbit wrote:
How many people left because the board is closed? One or two?
Perhaps only one or two (or three or four) people have left specifically because of their philosophical opposition to a closed board, but I believe many more have left or have dramatically tailed off their participation because of the boredom factor resulting from, but perhaps not limited to, (i) the lack of new blood (b/c we're closed & do not allow invites) and (ii) the constitution drafting process taking up so much of the posting activity that does go on here. I believe that if one is not fairly deeply involved with (or at least closely observing) the drafting process, all the discussions about process have got to have become deathly boring by now -- I am moderately involved and I'm pretty darn bored by it. Yes, those not interested in the constitutional process can ignore it and continue to post in all the other threads (and they do), but I think many people who are involved in the drafting process are finding a lot less time to socialize outside the drafting fora, making those other threads a lot less lively. The travails of the drafting process, by themselves, don't argue against the value of undertaking the process -- but the combination of the quasi-vacuum created by that drafting process and the quasi-vacuum created by the closed/no-invite nature of the board really are, in my opinion, sucking quite a bit of air out of this board at this moment. The question then is, how long is "this moment", and can the B77 organism survive that long without a good draft of air before suffering severe and possibly permanent damage?

Again, it's just doom and gloom TORN talking, so take my ranting for what it's worth.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 7:31 pm
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I am moderately involved and I'm pretty darn bored by it

If *you're* bored, imagine how *I* feel. :damnfunny :tired:

... but I think many people who are involved in the drafting process are finding a lot less time to socialize outside the drafting fora, making those other threads a lot less lively.

This is really true. I know that I've hardly posted anywhere else since the committee started ... the nice weather matters, too, because people are probably taking lunch outside and being out on weekends.

I'll be very happy when the committee is finished.

Jn

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 7:43 pm
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Voronwe wrote:
None of these things required a ten day discussion and then a poll.
I'm with you Voronwe but all those were prior to the currently established voting procedures for matters that affect the future of this board. Sorry, but again I have to say sorry - this stems from having been here from the very beginning and having gone through many many discussion about just how long a discussion should run, how long a poll should run. You've 'only' started this thread on the 2nd of May but you want to take that as the 'counting-off-point' for the 10days including two weekends. Keeping in mind that only the regulars peek in here I think with all due respect that that is not a sufficient timeline for something as important as this.

More time needs to be given to those that want to vote but have RL restriction on their online time. In my opinion this is just as important as the current vote on the charter ratification and should be stickied globally.
I personally don't care if the discussion continues in here to make up 10 days or not (as per consititution ratifcation) but one thing I'm very adament about (with respect ;) ) that the minute this goes up as a poll, it gets stickied globally and the first post is very clear (I'm sure you've updated it but I haven't actually looked --- I trust you :) )

Please..... think about it... and think of allowing a bit more time on this for more people to catch on. It is very important!

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yovargas
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Agree with TORN's last post whole-heartedly.


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Frelga
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 8:09 pm
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Quote:
No, it means we care to have the board the way we want it, rather than trying to please everybody.
I agree that trying to please everybody is futile. And I think I know what you intended to say. AND I know you didn't mean it that way, only... it sounds just a tiny bit like something I've heard before, somewhere else.

Of course, no single messageboard will ever be able to please everybody all the time, nor should it try. Still, if posters who have been contributing members of these community are driven away solely because they don't agree with the closed nature of the board... I'm not saying we should rush out to open the board this instance, but I also don't think we can just shrug the matter off.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 8:10 pm
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What do other people (including my fellow admins) think about starting this poll first thing tomorrow (GMT time) so that it can run ten days and two weekends through May 16, or waiting an additional week so that it runs for ten days and two weekends through May 23.

And yes, when (if?) the vote starts I will make it a global sticky and make the first post as 100% clear as I possibly can. I might even do it as a separate thread from this one, if people think that would make it more clear rather then less.

And Viv, I greatly appreciate your feedback, just so you know. :love:


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 8:14 pm
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<applauds TORN and Jnyusa>

This is why Voronwe's poll is important. It at least gets one foot on the path toward opening.

Edit: Sorry—I tried to post this a while back and it did not appear to go through, and yet here it is now.

Voronwe, I don't think a global announcement can be a poll, because only admins can reply to announcements. You'll need to have the poll here and just put a link in the global announcement.

I am not sure about starting the poll tomorrow. I would like other people's input about this first. It would not be good to finally run this poll only to have the result be disputed because we didn't dot all the i's. On the other hand, maybe this is a separate case not bound by that rule.


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