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Thinking of England Forum and Opening the Board

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 7:39 pm
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"Discussion of topics not appropriate for children"?
Clunky but accurate.
:D

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 7:43 pm
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You're not being silly Prim - I have a similar 'strange' taste in my mouth when I hear 'adult' content. Your suggestion discussion of topics of interest to adults would be an elegant way around that (a bit more wordy, but heck... look at what we've got so far re constitution) ;)

Frelga not so sure about your suggestions, though perhaps mature could also be a good word (as in the meaning Suitable or intended for adults.. and not in that of 'Having reached a desired or final condition; ripe: a mature cheese') ;)


I like Impenitent's proposal.... a lot :D and I think that indeed we should put it before a vote before soon.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 7:51 pm
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I wanna be a mature cheese! :rage: :rage: :rage:

(Ax is reaching the limit of his usefulness)

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Frelga
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 7:58 pm
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
Well, if we get too general, we end up implying that the rest of the board is for the unsophisticated and immature. :D
You are right. That would be terribly inaccurate. I suspect that the England isn't any more mature than the rest of the place. :P

Alandriel, I am not sure about my suggestions myself. Most of the time. :neutral:

Axordil. Oh? Would "cheesy discussion" be an appropriate description?

How about "grown-up" instead of adult? Doesn't have the same stigma and won't hand us over to the Google sharks.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 7:59 pm
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Well, I think Jn's suggestion that we handle this like ratifying the Charter is an excellent one—then the matter is simply settled, once and for all, and can be added to the charter.
Jnyusa wrote:
Finally, if Imp's text is approved (are you going to vote on this?), I think it would make an excellent addition to the Charter as an article all by itself. We could paste it right it. So ... perhaps you could make sure that this vote meets the requirements for ratification and then we've killed two birds with one stone.

Ratification requirements:

• discussion for ten days (check the start date of this thread)
• vote for ten days, two weekends inclusive
• 39 people must vote for the vote to be valid
• 67% of those who vote must approve
This thread started May 4, so discussion could end this Saturday, May 14—though maybe we should let it run through the weekend? Last weekend we were not near a consensus, and I think we ought to have a full weekend of discussion of Imp's proposal.

If we ended the discussion May 15, the vote could begin Monday the 16th but would have to run until the 30th, a full two weeks, to include two weekends. Of course discussion could go on longer if there still appeared to be issues.

In the constitution threads, Jn puts up a draft ballot for discussion some time before the vote begins. Imp, would you be willing and able to draft a ballot on this? Or is there another volunteer? I can help, of course, and I'm sure Jn will offer advice if needed.

It might be best if we tried to arrive at a single proposal that could then go up for an up-or-down vote of the full membership. In other words, the participants in this thread are, in a way, an ad hoc committee like the constitution committee. But anyone may join the discussion at any time.

How does this sound to people?

Edit: "Grown-up" sounds a little patronizing to me. I think to avoid "adult," "discussion of topics not appropriate for children" is clear.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 8:15 pm
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yeah - but then the way 'children' can be defined (versus young adults)... :roll: It's no easy matter... but I still like your first wording best Prim

.. and the rest sounds good indeed :D .. and so I'll shut up until I see the poll

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yovargas
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 9:56 pm
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"Discussion of topics not appropriate for children"?

I like this a lot. The first one doesn't tell me anything. Harry Potter is "appropriate for adults". The second choice is much more straight forward without any dirty or condescending vibe. Perfect, IMO.


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Impenitent
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 11:40 pm
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I'll be happy to formulate the ballot (doing it now - hope it stands up to scrutiny! :Q )

Two issues first, however:

The 6th point states:

Before permission is activated, an email with the ToE sticky note information will be forwarded to the new member, who will be required to agree to the terms in that sticky by return email.

We need to look at that sticky. Do we need to do that now before the ballot or can we do it afterwards?

The 7th point states:
7. The members of the ToE forum itself will be vigilant for inappropriate behaviour such as an adult "grooming" a minor or other behaviour blatantly taking advantage of someone who is emotionally vulnerable (no need to spell that out; we all know when a line has been crossed that makes one cringe).

Do we need to add somewhere what action can/should/may be taken if such behaviour is observed? My thought was that if there is no vetting before entry to the forum, there should be recourse to means of removal from the forum if the poster proves him/herself unsavoury.

And I also need to redraft the 6th and 7th points; they sound abit lame for entry into the charter.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 3:46 am
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Sorry...more questions.

I just want to be clear: I'm putting together a ballot for discussion; it will be discussed over two weekends and then opened for voting on Monday 23 May for 24 hours.

Is that right?

And where will the ballot discussion go? Here or in the Jury Room with all the other charter ballots?

(And I'm anxious about making a fool of myself by putting together a screwy document)

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 6:49 am
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Discussion should go here in this thread, since it's not a formal committee and the Jury Room has restricted posting access (we want plenty of people to chime in here).

If the discussion appears to be complete, voting could start Monday, 16 May (giving more than the required 10 days) and would have to run for two full weeks, until 30 May, in order to include two weekends.

These are the rules that apply to charter ratification, and I agree with Jn that if we follow those rules here, we'd be justified in including the result (assuming it's approved by 67% of at least 39 people voting) in the charter.

As for your earlier questions, stickies aren't voted on; they just interpret what's been voted on. They could certainly be discussed after this vote is settled.

As for the second, this will be discussed in more detail when the constitution committe gets to Member Rights and Responsibilities, but there is room in the charter for ToE-specific requirements as to what is a problem and what will be done about it (in terms of existing procedures).

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 7:05 am
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I suggest we tack on the title Article 6: Age Restricted Forum and move it wholesale into the charter.

Jn

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 7:12 am
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Fine with me :D but I think people are quite eager to vote on this here and soon so perhaps Impenitent can just word the poll, let the discussion run until the 10 days from the start of this thread are up, and then put up a seperate poll in a new thread (and link back to here). That way, those that are so eager can vote - and we can hook one more item as done :)

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 7:14 am
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Thanks Jn!

I also want to make clear that we do not, here and now, have to settle the question of what constitutes misbehavior in ToE, and what will be done about it. Those will both be discussed by the committee under the agenda item on member rights and responsibilities, and everyone (especially ToE members) will be welcome to offer ideas and suggestions at that time. You can be sure they'll be listened to, just as RP forum members will help define potential problems and work out potential solutions for their forum.

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Nin
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 7:20 am
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I don't have a problem with waiting for the vote if a compromise has been found.

And I like the idea of including it in the charter.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 2:32 pm
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I think putting in the charter is actually a good idea for three reasons:

1) It shows, as TP has noted this discussion shows, that we have made a bona fide effort to deal with the problem.

2) It also shows that the forum is important/exceptional enough to be delineated in the charter.

3) It provides an example for the future of how the membership can contribute directly to the charter.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 3:49 pm
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Perhaps when the voting is done, this entire thread could be locked and moved into The Archive, so that the written record of our concerns, of direct membership participation, etc. will remain an accessible historical record.

Jn

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 12 May , 2005 3:51 pm
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Great idea, Jn. Certainly we'll do that.

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samaranth
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Posted: Sat 14 May , 2005 3:48 am
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Jn, you asked (last Thursday) Sam, while composing the Member Rights draft that we'll be looking at next in committee, I thought about this because PM harrassment was something the committee wanted to guard against. But the issue is difficult because the Admins can't look inside PMs (correct me if I'm wrong) and harrassment by PM becomes a he said/she said kind of issue. And it opens people to frivolous and/or vindictive accusations.

First of all, I’m sorry it’s taken so long to get back to you. Work. Life. The usual excuses.

PMs can be stored, so there is the opportunity for‘evidence’ of each side to be presented. I don’t think it’s feasible to prevent such complaints being made, but the process of considering them will not proceed if the complaint is deemed to be frivolous or vexatious. We did some work on a similar issue to this a few years ago, I’ll scout around when I’m back in the office next week to see if there’s anything useful there.

I agree that a statement about the use of PMs should be included in the Charter, and that a misuse of this facility (which is a perk of the membership of this site) could lead to the kind of penalties which the Charter provides for other contraventions of the Charter.

I’m really hoping to catch up with the Charter discussions over the next few days – I constantly feel that I’m operating in a fog because I’m not fully aware of what’s on the table, and what is yet to be covered.

And thank you for the information about email in the US.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sat 14 May , 2005 4:13 am
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Thanks, Sam!

Meanwhile Prim told me that we can collect PM evidence if necessary. The user can create a temp password and allow an admin into their account to view the offending PM.

Jn

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sat 14 May , 2005 4:50 am
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I thought that up all by myself. :)

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