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Thinking of England Forum and Opening the Board

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yovargas
Post subject: Thinking of England Forum and Opening the Board
Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 6:30 pm
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Why would ToE be an issue when we open if it isn't one now?


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 6:48 pm
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yovargas wrote:
Why would ToE be an issue when we open if it isn't one now?
Without getting into it too deeply, since it is not really the subject of this discussion, I will try to answer this question from my perspective. If it sparks a separate discussion about TOE, I reserve the right to split the discussion off into a separate thread.

The way things stand now, everyone here has been invited by someone else who is here (or is an original member). It is very easy to control who has access to the TOE forum, and to ensure that minors and other people that should not be there don't have access.

Once we open to the public, it will become virtually impossible to ensure that minors or other people that should not be there can't get in. I am unsure of the legal ramifications of this, but I am sure that there are moral implications that can not be swept under the carpet. It is not sufficient, in my opinion to just have a statement saying that only adults are allowed inside. For many young people, that would actually be considered to be an enticement to come on in, hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. Do you really want to be discussing the intimate details of your sex life with a 13 year old?

Nor are the issues limited to access by minors. I could easily see some stranger coming into that forum and creating great havoc before we could take effective action to stop him or her, shattering the comfort zone that currently exists that allows members to discuss sensitive issues in an open and safe environment. I would think that it would be the members that regularly post in the TOE forum that would be most interested in maintaining a firm control over who has access to it. I strongly believe that when board77 opens, TOE should be a separate, closed, invite-only forum.

But I have no idea whether that view reflects the view of the majority of the membership.


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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 6:55 pm
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Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
Do you really want to be discussing the intimate details of your sex life with a 13 year old?
It's not our responsibility to monitor that. It's our responsibility to protect ourselves against devious minors and irresponsible parents.
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I strongly believe that when board77 opens, TOE should be a separate, closed, invite-only forum.
Absolutely not. What a great idea...let's shun the people who post there

I'm sorry if you feel this is derailing your thread V, but I had to respond.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 8:03 pm
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Perhaps a password for TOE, for people who somehow prove they are over 18 :scratch

Only people issued a password could access TOE, and the password would be issued in email to the person from Admin, after some sort of waiver and age thing is ok'd... :scratch And it would not be an invite only but like it is now, ask and then prove your are old enough and then be given a password. Hey it maybe way to much work, I have no idea. Its just a thought.

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yovargas
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 8:10 pm
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All so unnecessary, imo. It's just a discussion forum, even if it is about sex. If kids are allowed to walk into a library or bookstore and read stuff that is sexually explicit (which kids can do), then ToE is nothing. The 18 & up requirement should just be about keeping the discussion to an adult level and nothing else. I really think people think it's a much bigger deal then it actually is (much like opening the boards in general).


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 8:51 pm
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Quote:
What a great idea...let's shun the people who post there
There is nothing that I said that remotely suggests that, Eru.
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It's not our responsibility to monitor that. It's our responsibility to protect ourselves against devious minors and irresponsible parents.
You may not feel that it is not your responsibility to avoid creating easy access to sexually explicit discussions to minors, but I do feel that it is my responsibility. Although I know that you hate it when people say things like this, to be frank I will leave this board if it opens without some kind of provision protecting against this. That is not a threat, just a simple fact. I would not want to be involved or associated with the board if that were the case. I'm sorry if that offends you or anyone, but it is the simple truth. I'd rather say it now then spring it on people at the last second


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Sassafras
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 8:51 pm
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What Yov said.

I've meandered through TOE a few times and there's absolutely nothing pornographic in it. It's rather tame actually.

I think that the legal ramifications need to be known before we begin a discussion on accessibility.


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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 9:02 pm
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Just getting back here to copy the bitts that are important into this too.

Please keep in mind that so long as we're on this free phpbb board, there is little we can do in way of customization. To split off TOE forum into a seperate entity is not a good idea IMHO (despite the fact that I hardly peek in here). It grew here.... so why should we shun it and it's posters by effectively banishing them to a seperate place alltogether? Not right if you ask me.

But - what can we do with the forum here, under these circumstances? The only thing we can do, give manual permission to each user that requests it. So far they've done so by PMing an admin, confirming they're 18 or over and that's that.
Perhaps there needs to be a more formal process for that, e.g. email AND a record kept here in the confidential Admin section (like I've suggested previously somewhere along the line) so that there is 'evidence' (Admin posts quoted email, email is kept logged and filed in the email account.)

I'm not a lawyer however, so I have no idea what kind of 'annoucement' or 'sticky' we need to formulate. I'd rather leave that up to the professionals.

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TORN
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 9:29 pm
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I thought the discussion on ToE had made some real progress in another thread, starting right about here: http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... rd77#45380. It might be worth reviewing.


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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 11:27 pm
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Maybe you ought to go into the TOE forum Voronwe. Then you'd see it's nothing worse than the books about sex and relationships in your local Barnes & Nobles. It's extremely tame and not what I'd call explicit. I believe you're getting worked up over something that you have a wrong idea about.

We allow swearing on every part of this board which would affect children, so how come you're not up in arms about that? What about the innuendo that can occur in all forums? Right now this messageboard is an adult message board.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 12:10 am
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I've been, Eru, thanks. Doesn't change my mind at all.

The dilemna that was reached in the thread that TORN linked to was the fact that, on the one hand, if TOE is part of board77 and board77 becomes an open site, there needs to be a prominently displayed disclaimer on the front page of board77, that makes it clear that only adults are allowed to post in or read the TOE forum. From a legal point of view I confident that that is true. And yet, the very idea of having a prominently displayed disclaimer on the front page is a big problem for some posters.

Just because these things are not a problem for all members does not mean that they should be discounted. After all, the members that do share these concerns should not be shunned either.

Should we? :scratch


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Holbytla
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 1:21 am
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I get the feeling of late, and I am probably wrong, but I do get the feeling that we are trying to fit this place to the rules instead of the other way around. This place is what it is. It is or was an adult site with swearing and talk of sex in some places, an innuendo in most places. That is what it has been to this point. The rules need to fit that. If we are going to change what this place is, then that is a whole nuther discussion, and I am definitely prepared to go to the mat for that debate.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 1:34 am
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I agree, in essence, with Holby. ToE is an active part of B77, and whatever rules we come up with need to reflect that. If that involves some sort of disclaimer on the front page, or one on the front page and one on the sticky for the forum, or whatever, then so be it. The solution that interferes the least with how the board works now is the best, IMO. And that applies pretty generally.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 1:40 am
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I don't think we need to change what this place is. But there are potential legal problems with an open board with sexual content that we all need to understand and address. (I do not claim to know what they are, only that they exist.) Language and innuendo are not the same thing as sexual content. There are many boards out there with language and innuendo and no disclaimers.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 1:44 am
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I don't know what the legal parameters are either, but I will bet they are the same open or closed.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 1:49 am
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My understanding is that there is a difference. I do remember one of our attorneys expressing a great deal of concern specifically about the implications of opening with ToE.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 2:40 am
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There are at least two reasons that I can think of why the legal issues become more important if we open.

The first is that it has been assumed all along that when we opened we would move to our new home. Once that happens, there is an "owner" who assumes legal responsibilities, whether it is Steve or a corporation that I set up or whoever.

The second is that the chance of a legal issue arising increases exponentially once we open. As it stands right, it is a non-issue, because the membership is so familiar. There is no chance that a minor could sneak into the TOE forum without their parents knowing. Once we open, that suddenly becomes a very real possibility. And even more real if there is no prominently displayed disclaimer on the front page, since then the minor could show the site to his or her parent and get their approval to join, and then sign up for the TOE forum afterwards. Imagine how pissed off the parents would be if they found out that the "innocent" site had a hidden sex forum?

Holby and Ax, the board has changed, and will certainly change much more if it opens. The only way to keep that from happening is to not open, and keep the board as a closed, exclusive club. If that's what you want, that's fine, but you should be clear that that is what you are saying.


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Holbytla
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 2:49 am
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If opening means that we have to change, then I am definitely against opening. Nobody said anything about an exclusive club. We stated that this was an adult board, and that we are who we are, and the rules should fit that. That is what we are saying. If you are saying that won't be the case when we are open, then we have huge problems. I refuse to start censoring. Period. I can go back to TORC if I want that.
This place had an atmosphere that I am loathe to leave behind. That atmosphere was openess, member moderated, and adult oriented.
I see no need to change any of those things.
If someone electronically signs a statement that they are over a certain age, then I believe you are not liable. If you have to use Verisign or whatever service.
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There is no chance that a minor could sneak into the TOE forum without their parents knowing.
Guess again.

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tinwe
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 2:57 am
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First off: Is “sexual content” really what we’re worried about here? Grade school textbooks have “sexual content”: - it’s called sex education. Television commercials are stuffed full of “sexual content”- it’s called advertising. We’re surrounded by “sexual content” that, while some may find distasteful, few of us worry about restricting access to.

My understanding of what requires age-restricted access is ... porn. I haven’t seen any porn in the TOE forum. In fact, my understanding is that porn is one of the few things that is strictly forbidden here. As it should be.

That doesn’t mean that I think the TOE should be open to all. It is uniquely adult conversation that occurs there, and I think most of us feel that it is simply a matter of being responsible adults and creating a board that anyone can feel comfortable to be a part of, that we require age-restriction on it. That is also as it should be, IMO.

Secondly: We will need to have a disclaimer, but “prominently displayed” does not have to mean 36 point, bold face, flashing red light, text splashed across every page. Something reasonable on the front page (once we have one). And it doesn’t need to be in the harsh language that Lidless originally proposed, which sounded more like a disclaimer for a porn site than what we have here.

Honestly, I think the procedure we have in place now would work fine for an open board - a restricted forum with permission granted on request after verification of age. And I’m with Eru and Holby on the verification aspect - the responsibility is on the poster to be honest about their age. There are a billion different things like that all over the internet, and the only “legally verifiable” way I’ve ever seen for proof of age is by providing a credit card number, and even that doesn’t insure the person is over 18. But, like Holby said, a “signed” statement should be all that is necessary for what we have in the TOE. IMO, of course.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 3:04 am
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Holbytla wrote:
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There is no chance that a minor could sneak into the TOE forum without their parents knowing.
Guess again.
If that has already happened in the closed private board, think about how much more likely it would be to happen on an open board.


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