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Eligibility of Jurors: VOTE CLOSED

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Do You Approve This Text in its Entirety?
Poll ended at Wed 11 May , 2005 12:09 am
I approve this text
  
100% [ 15 ]
I do not approve this text
  
0% [ 0 ]
Total votes: 15
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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 12:56 am
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I do have a question:

This text takes as a given that there is a Mayor - and we have not confirmed such a thing! All the discussion about a Mayor (or Proctor or whatever) has been informal, and there was a even a thread in which heated argument occurred which we put off by saying that the discussion and therefore the decision on the role and title had not yet occurred.

We are seriously contradicting ourselves here! If we vote to accept this text, we have a Mayor. I can think of at least one person who would feel very let down by this, in light of that earlier thread.

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laureanna
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 1:07 am
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I'm voting yes, but with the same concern - that I am not agreeing implicitely to a mayor. If that one sentence could be tweeked to "administrator", if the mayor is not established, then I'm happy with it.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 1:51 am
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I think we did vote for having a Mayor.

I don't remember exactly in which poll, but I remember the question said that we'd have to create the office if this option won, and it did win.
I'm pretty certain we did vote for having a Mayor.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 1:57 am
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The existence of a Mayor is being ratified right now. The Mayor is the one who does all the record-keeping for the admins.

I think you might be confused with the current discussion about whether there should be a second elected office for overseeing hearing procedure.

Jn

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:36 am
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I don't recall the office of Mayor being created! In fact, here there was some heated discussion about it and the following day I posted:
Quote:
...May I humbly suggest that the definition and titling of the role of mayor/spokesperson/executive secretary/whatever is left untouched at the moment?

It has raised many hackles and yet it is only an idea that has been idly tossed into the ring; there has been no serious discussion of it yet.

At the moment the convetion is discussing arbitration/concilliation processes; when that is done, we can turn to defining and titling those roles.

Thing is, we haven't in any way decided that the role[s] will exist so we're jumping the gun a little and get all hot under the collar about an ethereal possibility.


and Voronwe supported this point of view.

If we are ratifying the position (and title) of Mayor now, through this very vote, I would urge that those who expressed dissatisfaction be notified?

I would hate to feel that I'd hoodwinked MariaHobbit into keeping her silence by a false impression that we'd be discussing the issue later.

In fact, I will PM her now, to notify her (for my own peace of mind).

Jn, I'm sorry about this. I don't mean to make waves, but I suspect we've been talking about 'the Mayor' for so long that many people have just assumed it's a done deal - while others are still waiting for the formal discussion.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:51 am
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...

Last edited by Primula_Baggins on Mon 09 May , 2005 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:52 am
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Imp,

In the thread where we are ratifying the charter, a summary of the charter is posted.

This paragraph appears very close to the beginning:

There will be an Office of the Mayor created, who will keep track of member join dates and eligibility, who will contact potential volunteers, schedule terms of office, and maintain other details concerning the activity of admins. ¶2 [How the Mayor is chosen, and how to contest his/her decisions will be decided later.]


In the thread that you link to, MariaH was objecting to the creation of a SECOND MAYOR or mayor's assistant or any other office that would imply there are two mayors.

In the future, please read the whole thing or ask someone who is informed before sending out PM's that imply the committee is misleading people. Would you kindly PM Maria again and tell her that you were mistaken.

Jn

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 3:21 am
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Jn, I did not say, nor did I advise MariaHobbit, that the committee was misleading people.

I did say that I, with Voronwe's support, had advised MariaHobbit and others that the discussion of the Mayor and/or his assistant or second mayor, was out of time and place as that discussion would come later.

And the PM I sent MariaHobbit simply advised her that the issue had come up now - not that she was being misled. I did this for MY peace of mind, as I was the one who had suggested to her (and others) to hold off discussion til the topic came up.

Please don't jump to conclusions.

I have read the threads and while I admit I don't retain information in quite the same comprehensive ways as others, the issue of Mayor (or whatever title) is being ratified NOW and those who are interested in that issue should have a chance for input.

I understand that you are thoroughly tired of the length of this process - but please also understand that, as drafter of most of this material, you have your finger on the pulse. Many others are floundering in the wealth of material that must be absorbed.

EDIT: The issue (as I intended it, not the way it has been interpreted) that I brought up still stands btw. If we ratify this text here, on the eligibility of jurors, we also ratify the existence and role of the mayor, BEFORE the discussion on the specifics of that role concludes.

2nd EDIT: I'm not just being contrary - but I've literally just taken note that references to 'the Mayor' have appeared in many of the voted on texts already - it had slipped past my consciousness. And yet we had nowhere specifically decided on the title or the role. It appears to have occurred in an ad-hoc fashion.

Last edited by Impenitent on Mon 09 May , 2005 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TORN
Post subject: Re: Eligibility of Jurors: NOW VOTING
Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 4:18 am
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You may be stunned to learn that I actually voted in favor of this provision -- the eligibility requirements and the mayoral duties seem perfectly appropriate, although I think the posting of names is a bit more than I would personally go for (can make our board seem a bit litigious and it seems a little odd that you would have a fairly good idea of the slate of likely jurors going into a proceeding) -- but that is only a minor quibble


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 5:40 am
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Impy, :hug:. I think that what I said before (or at least what I meant to say :help:) was that the exact role of the mayor had not yet been decided, beyond the record-keeping function that is described in the Admin article that is currently being ratified. It has been, from the beginning, my idea that we would have someone called a "Mayor" who would act as a spokesperson for the board. Others came up with the idea of using that title to describe the person who would have the recordkeeping function. I still hope that the "Mayor" will have the spokesperson role that I had originally envisioned, but that has not yet been decided. I believe, though I could be wrong, that there was some talk at some point about calling the "Mayor" something other then "Mayor" if the position has only the recordkeeping function that has currently been allocated to it. I would support this, though of course I hope that that won't be necessary and that the committee will approve my original idea.

I hope that helps clear things up and does not just further muddy the waters.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 5:40 am
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Imp,

The first committee voted to create the office of mayor and we wrote it into the charter. The fact that we created this office appears prominently at the beginning of the Charter summary. It is underlined. The members had ten days to discuss this and NO ONE objected to the office of Mayor or questioned its appropriateness.

What happened in the ratification thread is that someone said there should be a SECOND MAYOR and this is what Maria and Mummpizz were arguing about. Mummpizz then opened a thread in the Bike Racks for that argument because it did not belong in the ratification thread. There is no second mayor in the charter hence no need to discuss a second mayor in the ratification thread. One person at least in that thread subsequently asked me to confirm that there is only one mayor and I did.

If you and laureanna didn't want a mayor, the time to say that was seventeen days ago when the Charter summary was put up for discussion. We generously offered to pull any controversial item from the charter - no questions asked - before ratification. No one asked us to remove ANYTHING. Now it is much too late to raise questions of this sort.

Also, I would very much prefer that the discussions of the committee be kept within the committee until they are resolved. The committee exists precisely so that we do not have to grapple with 180 opinions and misunderstandings and requests for clarification until we have something that we feel is ready for ratification.

These committee threads can be read by anyone who is interested. There is a thread in the Business Forum and a thread in the Bike Racks where members can give input and which I read daily. All member comments are reposted here in committee. Global Stickies were put up for the charter ratification and followed up this week by a global email. It is unnecessary and counter-productive for committee members to send out individual warnings about what is happening here.

Jn

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 5:59 am
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It is obviously my stupidity at fault; I haven't had the necessary time available to me to absorb all this, just as I feared.

I don't want to frustrate you or confuse matters any further.

Please just remove me from the committee so you need not wait on my votes or any other input. That might be best.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:13 am
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Imp,

You don't have to leave the committee, and there are many members who don't have time to keep up with everything. We have to allow for that because this is our hobby, not our job. We cover a lot of ground two and three times over as people catch up. The threads get long! This is the nature of the beast and even though it tires me it does not annoy me because I knew the nature of this process before I began. The only thing I find truly frustrating is when people don't participate with questions/ideas because then I don't know if we're moving in the right direction or not.

But it is not helpful to me if you contact members outside the committee when you're not sure what's going on. It creates unnecessary confusion and possibly unnecessary work for me. I will discuss anything HERE until there are no misunderstandings, but I don't want to be put in the position of having to answer questions in the Business Forum because someone on the committee provided inaccurate information to the membership at large. I'm sure you can understand why I would wish to avoid this.

Jn

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:14 am
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Imp, we all have times when there's too much to take in in the time we have available. It has nothing to do with stupidity; it's just having a complicated real life. And this is all a lot to keep track of. Sometimes I just have to back off and follow the discussion silently because it feels like overload.

You have already made valuable contributions to the committee. I really hope you will reconsider and stay.

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 6:21 am
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Voted-

Maria's concern was mostly about having two mayors, honestly I don't see a problem in contacting her, as I don't see a problem in reaffirming that the office of mayor has been created and only has to be defined further now.

Sometimes we're all tired and lost, and the best thing is to say so.

What about GC2?

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 1:02 pm
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Voted too :)

and Impenitent, please do not remove yourself from the pannel. You're input is very necessary and greatly appreciated. It's hard to keep on top of all of this - so please listen to the wise ones :)

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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 1:30 pm
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Voted.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:11 pm
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I should probably mention that I had already voted (first one, actually).


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:12 pm
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I've voted as well.

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Cerin
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Posted: Mon 09 May , 2005 2:31 pm
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I have voted.


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