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Assembling Hearing Procedures in Full

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 3:59 am
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Aha! Yes. I never put in the http because it has never been required before.

You know what this means? [whisper] They changed something in the matrix. :uhoh:

Jn

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Cerin
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 4:39 am
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Jnyusa wrote:
My opinion would be that Alandriel's right to privacy outweighs my right to know in this case. She can't hide her drunken spree from other people in the RP forum because they were affected by it, and they will also be aware that Alandriel has disappeared for a week. That part of the community affected by this issue knows what happened.

I think the test rule should be that the ones who are affected have a right to know, but the whole community is not necessarily entitled to know every single thing that goes on.

Thank you for explaining your reasoning. I'll have to consider this awhile.


So as I understand it (referring to TORN's suggestion), we are currently considering the idea of a 'bench' trial, which for our purposes refers to the idea of a guilty plea being offered in lieu of a hearing, with the member accepting the penalty imposed by a panel of admins. This would involve whoever had brought the charge restating it for the panel, and the member taking responsibility for their action. Whether or not the trial and result were made public to the board at large would depend on who had been affected by the incident.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 4:48 am
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Cerin, what you have stated is also my understanding at this point.

The panel need not necessarily be admins. It could be jury members, and perhaps fewer than six. But the proceedings would not be public.

TORN informed us that he would be on the board rarely for the coming week, so I don't know if he'll be able to catch up on this conversation and offer clarifications. But Idylle seems familiar with this kind of procedure, and I'm sure that Voronwe is, too. So they can keep us on track.

Jn

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Cerin
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 4:58 am
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Jnyusa: The panel need not necessarily be admins. It could be jury members, and perhaps fewer than six. But the proceedings would not be public.

Would the proceedings then necessarily be conducted by PM or email? I don't see the same objection to holding them in a forum (the admin forum?) as I saw to the idea of holding jury deliberations in a forum.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 5:06 am
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I agree. The admins will know the outcome in any event because they are the ones who turn permissions on and off when a penalty is imposed.

There might be some cleanup associated with the 'hidden forum.' I'm not sure exactly where Alandriel had in mind when she proposed that. The admin management forum is readable here, one of them is at least.

Jn

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 6:39 am
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Alandriel the red haired ranger on a drunken rampage in the RP forum - now *that's* a thought - maybe that's just what my muse needs to climb out from under the rock.
:LMAO:

Needless to say, I'm with you Jny.

A hidden forum here on this board can of course always be seen by Admins. What I meant earlier is that perhaps the jury will preferr to open their own free phpbb board to deliberate and when done, will clean up - meaning: delete all threads and even take the forum offline (which can be done by the one who started it and is still in Admin function).
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Alatar
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 11:48 am
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Jnyusa wrote:
(1) Quite a few committee members feel that we need to create an elected office that does nothing but makes sure that correct procedure is followed during a Hearing. There needs to be one person - and not the Mayor - who knows the charter well, knows what the hearing procedure should be, knows what you can and cannot be penalized for and so forth, to whom jurors will address procedural questions. This idea has been discussed for the last few pages, and I believe that we will soon put it to a vote whether we should create an official like that.
(2)We are also discussing is what to call that person.
Can't we just call them Jnyusa?

Oh, and congrats on your grandchild! Be sure to offer to babysit at least once a week. Us parents need Grandparently intervention regularly in order to keep us sane.

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Axordil
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 3:52 pm
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Belated :Wooper: for your new addition, jnyusa! And don't let Alatar scare you...the clone is coming along nicely. :D

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truehobbit
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 6:58 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
TH: :( I'm sorry! This is getting rather complicated. Let me see if I can unravel some of it for you.

We've been talking mostly about paragraph ¶4 (see the first few posts of the thread). That paragraph lays out the basic procedure that will be used in all Hearings. The paragraphs that follow present only minor modifications to ¶4, so we are trying to settle ¶4 and then we can vote on a bunch of paragraphs at one.

But ¶4 is not easy.
(1) Quite a few committee members feel that we need to create an elected office that does nothing but makes sure that correct procedure is followed during a Hearing. There needs to be one person - and not the Mayor - who knows the charter well, knows what the hearing procedure should be, knows what you can and cannot be penalized for and so forth, to whom jurors will address procedural questions. This idea has been discussed for the last few pages, and I believe that we will soon put it to a vote whether we should create an official like that.
(2)We are also discussing is what to call that person.
(3) Alandriel suggested that we create a hidden forum for jury deliberations, but the downside of that is that it cannot be hidden from the administrators. We can envision a few difficulties arise from this, so this idea has been pretty much abandoned.
(4) Now TORN has suggested that we build another option into ¶4, which he calls a "Bench Trial." We discovered that we are not sure what he means by this. Idylle and I thought it meant "pleading guilty" and not having to go to a hearing, whereas Cerin thought it meant a hidden hearing with admins instead of jurors. TORN also gave a specific example which might be problematic - a poster appearing before one admin and agreeing to be banned. But the principle might be sound even if we disagree with his example.

That's where we are now.

I think that I am going to put up an interim vote on the existence and title of this second elected official, to resolve part of the discussion at least.

Jn
Jny, thanks so much, you are fantastic! Wow, so much work just so that I can keep up! :hug:

I can happily say that I finally got through all the introductory posts, but for the discussion thought I'd just read from my last post for a start - and here's that lovely summary for me! :D

I must admit that when I saw the mention of "bench trial" on the first page, after what seemed to me a pretty good draft for a hearing process, I thought, "shit, hope we can forget about that" - because I haven't the foggiest idea what a bench trial is. Glad to know you guys don't agree on what it is either! ;) Well, I'll read the rest of the page and then come back about it. :)

No big comments so far, actually I think most of it looks fine, apart from my known reservations about the new office.

Edit, because I got the stuff wrong I was asking about. :roll: :oops:

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Nin
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 7:05 pm
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I'm positively lost :(

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 7:15 pm
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Nin -

Not for long. As soon as we get those two draft ballots up to a vote, I'll pull out the ¶4 that we have to focus on and put it in a different thread with a summary of the decisions that have to be made.

Jn

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truehobbit
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 7:19 pm
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Nin, I think it's safe to skip page 1 - 3 of the discussion, as all new ideas brought up there probably are already in the introductory posts.
Read Jny's lovely summary, which I just quoted, and then go to the top of page four, where there's a bit about bench trials. :)

Editing in some comments on bench trials, because I have to get the quotes from different pages:
TORN, quoted by Jny wrote:
I wonder if any thought has been given to allowing the accused to request a "bench" trial (i.e., waive a right to a jury and instead have an admin "try" the case, possibly in private) or allowing settlements to be reached where the accused poster agrees to be banned (this option brings to mind prior discussions on this board about allowing people to request a self-ban -- my personal opinion is that I see nothing wrong with fulfilling a requested self-ban, even if it might tangentially help that poster to make a point that is contrary to the established position of the board).
With respect to the part I put in italics (sorry, nothing to do with the discussion here, really): my main problem with conceding a self-ban is what to do when people want that self-ban removed! I usually tell people I'm opposed to banning on request, but the main reason for that is that I'm opposed to unbanning on request - if you are banned without a reason, just because you want to, that would mean you can have that revoked, and can keep the admins busy banning and unbanning you as you see fit, and I think that mess shouldn't even be started with.

More to the point of the discussion: Jny and others later said that the bench trial was not supposed to be for offenses that result in a ban!
Which one is it, now?

Edit number 2: I like the case description with Alandriel drunk and running amok - that would be a very good example of the poster just accepting responsibility and avoiding a fuss. Not just avoiding publicity for themselves, really, but also saving the board some unnecessary trouble.

So, yes, I agree it's a good idea to have the option for the member facing a hearing to just admit to the accusation and talk the results over with - hmmh, who? - I think it should involve the person (Mayor/Loremaster) who has the best knowledge of the charter, plus an admin or two and the person or persons who brought up the charge.
Quote:
TORN informed us that he would be on the board rarely for the coming week, so I don't know if he'll be able to catch up on this conversation and offer clarifications. But Idylle seems familiar with this kind of procedure, and I'm sure that Voronwe is, too. So they can keep us on track.
No disrespect to our lawyers ( :) ), but I think what we are trying to build here is a process that fits our needs - if that process, when it's finished, still conforms with some process used in some real life setting, IMO is quite unimportant.

Last edited by truehobbit on Tue 10 May , 2005 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Nin
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 7:23 pm
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Tomorrow... I need a bath...

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 7:42 pm
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A bench trial simply refers to a trial in which a judge makes the decision rather then a jury.


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truehobbit
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Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 7:45 pm
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Ah ok - thanks, Voronwe! :)

I forgot to say that in my post above: I think it's a good idea to have that option, but I think we should call it something easier than "bench trial". ;)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 3:18 am
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Th: More to the point of the discussion: Jny and others later said that the bench trial was not supposed to be for offenses that result in a ban!
Which one is it, now?


TORN used the example of a ban, and said he thought people should be able to ban themselves. I said I did not think it should be used for a ban and I don't want people to be able to ban themselves.

We disagree. :)

So we'll have to discuss when this kind of hearing could be used and when not. I want to get the other two votes going, though, before starting a new thread for this. Sometime tomorrow morning ...

Jn

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 11 May , 2005 2:30 pm
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OK --

I have updated the first few posts of this thread so that the paragraph that was voted on now shows the approved text, and the color markers have been removed from other paragraphs wherever we reached a decision, either by vote or by general agreement.

A new thread has been started to focus the discussion on paragraph 4
Discussing ¶4

That thread contains a summary of what was already decided for that paragraph and what remains to be discussed. There are three other paragraphs that can also be given a ballot as soon as we resolve these last few deatils of ¶4.

Jn

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