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VOTE ON WHEN TO OPEN THE BOARD - RESOLVED!

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Assuming that all issues regarding HOW to open are resolved separately, I would like to see board77 open (please note that the total votes for each of the first six choices will carry over to the next choice):
Poll ended at Tue 17 May , 2005 12:11 am
1. As soon as the charter provisions regarding the admins are ratified;
  
22% [ 15 ]
2. As soon as the charter provisions regarding dispute resolution are ratified;
  
4% [ 3 ]
3. As soon as the charter provisions regarding members rights and responsibilities are ratified;
  
35% [ 24 ]
4. As soon as the charter provisions regarding the mission statement, purpose and goals are ratified;
  
16% [ 11 ]
5. As soon as the charter provisions regarding the office of the Mayor are ratified;
  
3% [ 2 ]
6. As soon as the charter provisions regarding the ownership of the board are ratified;
  
14% [ 10 ]
7. I do not want board77 to open in the foreseeable future.
  
6% [ 4 ]
Total votes: 69
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Faramond
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:37 pm
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I should just have stayed out of this as I intended from the beginning. What a waste.

I'm not trying to bully everyone and get my way, though it appears to me this is exactly what has happened. I'm trying to explain what I see so clearly and no one else does.

Why do I care so much?

Because this is a voting board, and if the voting results are not treated with exactness and care with special attention to the rules, we don't really have a voting board.

I remember in the convention when Jn was a lot more worried about following the proper procedure in the vote than I was --- I don't understand why now she thinks the imprecision of rounding is okay. I have been baffled by the response of everyone this whole time.

I feel like I'm pointing to a wall, telling you all it's blue, and yet you all keep insisting it's red. Eventually, that makes me see red. I don't deal well with that sort of thing. I can deal with a difference of opinion, but I just can't see this as opinion.

I don't want to be involved in a fued or argument with anyone, so I need to withdraw to a neutral position for awhile.

I'm not sorry for defending my position, but I am sorry for insulting so many people.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:39 pm
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Thank you for explaining yourself Faramond, and thanks for apologizing. I sincerely apologize for my share of what happened to upset you.

I hope stepping back will help, and that we'll see you here again soon. Truly, no one meant to insult you or belittle your position.

:hug:

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Faramond
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:41 pm
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Sassafras wrote:
Faramond :Q This is an appalling display of bad manners.
Quote:
This is about people telling lies about voting results and thinking it's customary or okay.
Lies? Lies!?

To insult the integrity of Voronwe, Jynusa and Prim, regardless of your rationale, is beyond reason.

I am speechless.
Okay, I decided to edit out the first sentence.

I'm sorry, Sass, but I cannot see the statement that option 5 won under the rules agreed upon as anything other than a lie. I don't think this is a deliberate lie, but a failure to see the importance of voting and the rules. I think the people you listed have lots of integrity ... but I'm afraid I don't trust their math reasoning right now.


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:42 pm
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If you guys take it to Bike Racks or PM, then I suggest you look into your MBTI personality profiles for a clue as to why the differences in outlook are so extreme. An INFP and an INTJ (for instance) can have entirely different priorities in dealing with the exact same situation. It's an inborn mental thing, not willful hurtfulness.


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:47 pm
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Faramond wrote:
I don't think anyone has read calmly and cooly what I said.
I did read calmly and cooly what you said (have you deleted that first post? why?) and I appreciate you making the points you did. I think it was your use of the phrase 'fudge the numbers' (and some other remarks in the now deleted post?) that made some people defensive, because that can be taken to imply dishonesty, and I think everyone was being open and honest about the situation.

Quote:
I made my initial objection very calmly, and I was told that I alone was threatening the existence of this board.
Apparently your anger over something said privately spilled into the thread.

It didn't appear to me that you were trying to bully anyone. It appeared to me that you felt very strongly about something. If you've 'gotten your way,' I think it's because you are essentially correct in what you said (about the numbers). I can see why you care so much about the vote. I think it's been very useful to be reminded of the importance of the integrity of a vote on a voting board.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:49 pm
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Quote:
I'm not trying to bully everyone and get my way, though it appears to me this is exactly what has happened. I'm trying to explain what I see so clearly and no one else does.
I see your point loud and clear, even did the math for myself last night. What you want from your point is what confuses me. You're not some lowly little underling of this board, your voice is as important as everyone else's. I see it as impractical to get heated and then not either offer up a suggestion to fix things or accept the offer made. Just sayin'



I'm submitting this post with some hesitation. I don't want to stir the pot anymore since Faramond is taking a break from this, but I think (even though I sound like a broken record) that the bolded part is important.

Last edited by TheEllipticalDisillusion on Thu 19 May , 2005 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:51 pm
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I think, Faramond, we have a fundamental difference in definitions here. "To lie" to you apparently means to state something that is not true. "To lie" to me, and to many others, means to deliberately state something that is not true in hopes of fooling someone. This is why we found it insulting.

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Faramond
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:55 pm
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It is silly to have so much angst and discussion over such a small thing. It's just a vote on a messageboard, FFS. As (perhaps irrationally) important as defending the, um, 'sanctity' of math is to me, it's not so important that I was to piss everyone off.

So this time I really will be leaving this thread for good. (Is is possible to turn off permissions in a thread? ;))

I will come back to repost the post I deleted, however, because it has now been mentioned a few times. But that will have to wait until I get home from work.

I deleted it because I was unprepared for the reaction I got when I made my objection and I perceived even then that given my current mood and the nature of the dispute this could get very ugly. Alas that I did not stick to my resolve to stay out of this!


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 7:05 pm
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Well, I think I owe everyone an apology too for being foolish enough to bring up decimal points.

The thing is, Faramond, Voronwe did not say in his initial post that 79.99999 would not count as 80%. At that point, everyone was thinking that the percentages shown beside the numbers on the board were the percentages we would use, and those are indeed rounded down or up.

It wasn't until TORN called our attention to the fact that those percentages are not quite correct (and at that particular moment they didn't even add up to 100%) that we began to discuss what would or would not count as 80%.

Call it an oversight, if you will, that the recognition of a rounding problem appeared after the poll had been posted, but it was not Voronwe's intention to deceive anyone, nor to fudge the vote. He did not say that any tiny fraction less than 80% would not count. He outlined in general that we would count up to 80%, and what he said as to rounding, the first and only time he said anything about it, was that if it were 79.3 he would feel he had to go to the next choice but if it were 79.7 he thought he could probably round up without objection.

No one objected, so ....what should we conclude?

Yes, I am extremely careful when I have the responsibility for counting votes, but we had two squeakers when you were helping me count and we looked for the reasonable way to view the results and an acceptable compromise. 8/16 is not a simple majority and 55 is not exactly 80% of 69 but the point is not to achieve perfection in math but to achieve an outcome that does in fact represent what the members want and expect.

Jn

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yovargas
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 7:08 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
8/16 is not a simple majority and 55 is not exactly 80% of 69 but the point is not to achieve perfection in math but to achieve an outcome that does in fact represent what the members want and expect.

Jn
Thank you for saying what I've been thinking.


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Nin
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 7:18 pm
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Thank you Jn, for being the voice of reason.

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TORN
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 9:40 pm
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Faramond--

For what it's worth, I agree with you, although it didn't REALLY bother me in the end to the point of raising an objection, plus I've kind of placed myself in a cooling off period, at least for the time being. Given the degree to which B77 is seeking to be rule-based, the perfectly consistent approach would be to not round, although I also accept that there is room for a reasonable counter-argument to that position. As I personally would prefer that B77 not be so rule-based but be much more free-form, the fact that what I view to be the perfectly consistent approach was not taken turned out to be not such a bad thing after all.


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 9:47 pm
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I was thinking about this thread when I was driving to the dog groomers and grocery store (yes, my life IS that exciting), and actually was thinking a lot about what people hold dear.

From what I've observed, I would guess that math is VERY important to Faramond. I'm pretty sure his job requires daily applications of finely tuned math skills. I have seen that exquisitely logical mind take apart OTHER problems with amazing linear thoughts. To him, I would think, precision in math is an unarguable thing. Inprecision is painful.

I hate to even say I LIKE math, here, because I'm so not where Faramond is. But I do like math. It just seems to me that for something of this level of importance (read: not a nuclear reactor equation, or something), 79.7 is pretty darned close to 80. I can be more relaxed about such things, because to me math is a tool, and tools can be close enough.

But if one of you came in here and told me that viruses were the same thing as bacteria, I would have to put some time into straightening your warped heads OUT. Microbiology is very important to me, and precision in micro, even on a messageboard, is worth, to me, a comment or two. ;)

I guess I don't know why I'm even saying all this, because I really am late to pick up the kids. (Yes, my life IS tha... :roll:)

Maybe it's just 'cause I can understand a little of where his pain came from?


Edited to add important qualifiers...

Last edited by Anthriel on Thu 19 May , 2005 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 9:52 pm
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I can understand, too. I've been dilligent (maybe annoying) to point out who exactly TPTB are on this board because I think it is a very, very important distinction and something I like about this place. I can see why any important issue for a person could or would get him or her riled to any point.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 9:59 pm
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I've been meaning to say that I appreciate your doing that, TED.

We haven't had enough admin changes yet, I think, for people to really believe in their guts that this is a temporary position, one that everyone here who wants to will eventually hold. Three months from now, no one who is presently an admin will still be one, and except for temporary fill-ins none of us are likely ever to serve again.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 10:09 pm
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:D It's the punk rock, democratic attitude in me.

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Angbasdil
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 10:11 pm
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As an anal-retentive math pedant, I tend to agree with Faramond in that 79.5% is not 80%, so the decision to round really is a breach of the policy stated at the beginning of the thread. But I also agree with him that it's just a messageboard and, as much as I care about this place, we shouldn't get our panties in a wad over it. The decision to round up to 80% follows the spirit of the vote - the decision represents a clear consensus of the voters. Let's just learn form it and move on, and next time let's be clear at the onset about rounding to the nearest integer.


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 10:43 pm
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Quote:
Sorry, Anthy, I do not include blasphemers in my list.

Heretic.
Wow. I am honored. Being called a blasphemer and a heretic by a Manweite is practically an affectionate embrace!

:hug:

:P


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 11:15 pm
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Quote:
the point is not to achieve perfection in math but to achieve an outcome that does in fact represent what the members want and expect.
Yes, Jn, that is exactly my feeling. Thank you for expressing it so well. :love:

And this vote is unique. The whole concept for the vote was new and unusual. I've never seen or heard of a similarly constructed vote (and I have absolutely no idea where the idea for it came from). So we had very little precedent to guide us. And we will never have to have a vote like this one again. In virtually any other voting circumstance it will be a question of determining which choice got more votes then another choice, and so we never should run into this problem again.

Thank God. ;)


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 11:32 pm
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Amen.


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