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Article 6: Age Restricted Forum: RESULTS POSTED

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Impenitent
Post subject: Article 6: Age Restricted Forum: RESULTS POSTED
Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 4:35 am
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The vote is now open and will close on 30 May at midnight GMT.

This is how you vote:

1. Copy the WHOLE ballot

2. Open one of the Admin's PM windows (Nin, Truehobbit, Voronwe, Laureanna, Prim) and paste the ballot in.

3. Delete the answer options to reflect your views on each of the ballot questions.

4. Please post here to advise you have voted so we can keep track of numbers. We need a Quorum for this Article to be ratified for the Charter, so please vote even if you say no to every question.

===========================

ARTICLE 6: AGE RESTRICTED FORUM

Question 1:

Disclaimer statement - A statement on the front page and on the registration form will state:

“Notice: Adult language is allowed on B77, but generally occurs no more frequently than in real life. We do require that members be at least thirteen years of age before joining. This board also contains an age restricted forum for discussion of topics inappropriate for children. The contents of this forum are not accessible to members who are under the age of eighteen, nor are they immediately accessible to the newest registrants.

All new Board registrations must provide their date of birth and a confirmation email from the member’s registration email address before membership is activated.”


A. I agree with this text
B. I do not agree with this text



Question 2. The “Thinking of England” forum header will be visible in the index but access is restricted to those who have specific permission to do so. The forum description will state: "Discussion of topics inappropriate for children; not accessible to those under the age of eighteen."

A. I agree with this text
B. I do not agree with this text



Question 3A. A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from an administrator.

OR ALTERNATIVE TEXT

Question 3B A member becomes eligible to apply to an administrator for access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. Before permission is activated, two (or more) current “Thinking of England” posters must sponsor the new applicant. The sponsorship will be in confidence and will take the form of PM to the administrator handling the permissions, stating “I am willing to sponsor [name of applicant]” and will be in response to a notifying post in that forum stating “[name of applicant] seeks sponsorship to this forum”.

A. I agree with the text in 3A
B. I agree with the text in 3B
C. I do not agree with either text



Question 4. Before permission is activated, an email with the “Thinking of England” forum sticky note information will be forwarded to the new member, who will be required to agree to the terms of participation in that forum as outlined in that sticky by return email.

A. I agree with this text
B. I do not agree with this text



Question 5. Posters, when in the “Thinking of England” forum, must be even more alert to abusive or exploitive behaviour (especially taking advantage of another’s emotional vulnerability, youth, or inexperience in adult environments) than in other forums. Posters are encouraged to act on conscience when they witness such behaviour and to report any violation of the by-laws to the Administrators.

A. I agree with this text
B. I do not agree with this text



Question 6. In addition to the criteria for jury eligibility outlined elsewhere, jurors for “Thinking of England”- related hearings are required to be ToE posters in good standing.

A. I agree with this text
B. I do not agree with this text



Question 7. As a courtesy, new posters to the 'Thinking of England' forum are encouraged to make their arrival known to existing posters in a Courtesy Introduction thread created for this purpose in that forum.

A. I agree with this text
B. I do not agree with this text


Question 8. It is the intention of the membership to stay abreast of any changes in the law that would affect their responsibilities toward the public where this forum is concerned.

A. I agree with this text
B. I do not agree with this text


=====================

Last edited by Impenitent on Tue 31 May , 2005 2:49 am, edited 15 times in total.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 5:00 am
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Quote:
As I understand it, we are NOT VOTING AT THIS TIME, merely discussing. We discuss until 30 May
Imp, that's not right, I'm afraid. The vote needs to last at least ten days and include two full weekends. But the vote can start as soon as May 14, since the discussion began on May 4. In practice, as long as the vote begins by 20 May it can finish by 30 May. I would not wait longer then that to start the vote because then it would not finish until June 6.

Thank you for pushing this forward. I greatly appreciate it. :love:

As for the form of the ballot, my suggestion would be to make it a single up or down vote on the whole process, rather then making each step in the process a separate question. I don't think it would be appropriate to approve some of the steps but not others. Just my opinion of course.


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Impenitent
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 5:24 am
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I'm concerned about the last two provisions, V. I think the preceding stuff has support but want to be sure of the other two questions.

Will modify the ballot and will also change the informational stuff - ballot will open on 14 May and close 30 May.

Thanks.

I need feedback. I'm not intuitive with this sort of thing at all!

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 5:25 am
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Great job, Imp! It's very clear.

Voronwe's right about the timing—formal boardwide votes have to last at least ten days and include two weekends. I also agree with him that it's important to end up with a complete document that we can present for an up-or-down vote.

We can discuss things bit by bit, as is done in the constitution committee, but I don't think interim votes would work here. They work in the committee because it's limited in size and only members can vote, but the whole idea here is to let everyone participate who wants to.

I'm hoping a consensus will emerge pretty quickly, as the discussion began May 4 in the other thread.

I think the discussion belongs here. Everyone who wants to contribute is welcome, since this matter affects the whole board. But I hope ToE posters especially will try to participate.

You do good work, Imp! :cheers

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Andri
Post subject: Re: Discussion of Article 6: Age Restricted Forum
Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 8:32 am
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Great job.
Impenitent wrote:
===========================


A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from an administrator.



I do not understand the purpose of the above condition. Is it because a new member has to be monitored by the admins for maturity of posts and thought before he/she is allowed access to the forum?
Explanation please? :)

Last edited by Andri on Fri 13 May , 2005 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 8:34 am
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Imp, I really like that phrasing 'emotional vulnerability'.

The grooming a minor bit is odd though, since there can be no minors in the ToE anyway...

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truehobbit
Post subject: Re: Discussion of Article 6: Age Restricted Forum
Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 10:02 am
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I like it, but there are a few things I have to comment on:
Quote:
A statement on the front page and on the registration form will state:

Board 77 strives to be a welcoming community of high standards for all posters, young and old alike. We are a member moderated message board. We believe in being respectful and courteous to all members. Adult language is allowed, but generally occurs no more frequently than in real life. We do, however, require that members be at least thirteen years of age before joining. This board also contains an age restricted forum for discussion of topics inappropriate for children. The contents of this forum are not accessible to members who are under the age of eighteen.

All new Board registrations require affirmation on the registration form that the applicant is over 13 years of age and date of birth must be provided.
I like that, but don't all messageboards/websites which require registration demand that members are above 13? The last couple of places I registered (all very harmless places, not mainly messageboards at all) all asked me to confirm that I was above 13!
So I'm wondering whether that needs be stressed.

I also think the name of the forum should be given in the above paragraph.
The following paragraphs talk about "Thinking of England" as if it was clear that this was the adult forum, which I don't think it is.
Quote:
A confirmation email from the member's registration email address is required before membership is activated.

The “Thinking of England” forum header may be visible in the index but access is restricted to those who have specific permission to do so. The forum description states: "Discussion of topics inappropriate for children; not accessible to those under the age of eighteen."
Bit confused here: the header will be invisible by default, unless we switch it on at the request of the user!
Or do we intend to change the settings to have it visible by default?

If we keep it invisible by default, I think it should say so in this intro, because otherwise people will be confused not to see it.
Quote:
A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from an administrator.
Can access be denied?
Quote:
Question 2. Before permission is activated, an email with the “Thinking of England” forum sticky note information will be forwarded to the new member, who will be required to agree to the terms of participation in that forum as outlined in that sticky by return email.
Permission for TOE you mean, not the board in general, right?
In that case I think this is fine!
Quote:
Question 3. The posters in the “Thinking of England” forum are explicitly required to be vigilant for inappropriate behaviour, such as an adult "grooming" a minor or other behaviour which is blatantly abusive of another’s emotional vulnerability. Posters are permitted to act on conscience when they witness such behaviour.
I like it, apart from the "grooming" bit, because I don't know what that is (too lazy to look it up :P ) - and because of what Ro said.

Lastly:
Quote:
( :Q Oi! I need to do some time conversion!) and will close 30 May, midnight MGT.
I posted this before, but it can't hurt to repeat it: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

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Rowanberry
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 12:06 pm
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Sounds good, Imp.

Andri, the three months and 100 posts requirement is just 1) so that the other members in general can get some idea of the applicant before s/he is granted access to the ToE; 2) to act as a troll filter - probably nobody who thinks that ToE is some sort of a porn forum will have patience to wait for three months and keep active on the other forums just to finally get there. At least, that's how I understood it.

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Impenitent
Post subject: Re: Discussion of Article 6: Age Restricted Forum
Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 12:08 pm
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I'm responding to one post at a time -- my brain can't contain all the relevant points at this time of night.
Andri wrote:
Great job.
Impenitent wrote:
==========================
A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from an administrator.
I do not understand the purpose of the above condition. Is it because a new member has to be monitored by the admins for maturity of posts and thought before he/she is allowed access to the forum?
Explanation please? :)
No, the admins don't monitor - the board does, effectively. The rationale is that after 3 months and 100 posts, the new poster has a feel for the board, has contributed and been here long enough to get to know others and has shown staying power - s/he has hung around, isn't a fly-by-night.

The admins check it's been 3 months, 100 posts and that age criteria are met, then turn on the permissions.

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Impenitent
Post subject: Re: Discussion of Article 6: Age Restricted Forum
Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 12:26 pm
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truehobbit wrote:
...don't all messageboards/websites which require registration demand that members are above 13? The last couple of places I registered (all very harmless places, not mainly messageboards at all) all asked me to confirm that I was above 13! So I'm wondering whether that needs be stressed.
Two reasons: no harm in being explicit about it and more importantly, the rationale for asking for date of birth upfront and linking it to age 13 may circumvent anyone under 18 from later being tempted to lie about age to access ToE.

Quote:
I also think the name of the forum should be given in the above paragraph.
The following paragraphs talk about "Thinking of England" as if it was clear that this was the adult forum, which I don't think it is.
What do others feel about this? If there is support for it, I'll change it of course.

However - personally I'd rather not be explicit about the name of the forum - "Thinking of England" has specific sexual connotations, whereas the statement currently simply talks about subject matter inappropriate for children. Being explicit could be a flag for those salaciously inclined.
Quote:
Quote:
A confirmation email from the member's registration email address is required before membership is activated.

The “Thinking of England” forum header may be visible in the index but access is restricted to those who have specific permission to do so. The forum description states: "Discussion of topics inappropriate for children; not accessible to those under the age of eighteen."
Bit confused here: the header will be invisible by default, unless we switch it on at the request of the user! Or do we intend to change the settings to have it visible by default? If we keep it invisible by default, I think it should say so in this intro, because otherwise people will be confused not to see it.
Samaranth (and others) argued that we should not hide it - that it should be visible but not accessible. I'm too tired to recap the reasons, but I'm happy either way: where is the weight of opinion?

Whether visible or not, I don't think explanation is necessary in the statement. If the concept sticks in the mind, and they're curious, they can ask. I personally think we should make as little deal about it as possible.
Quote:
Quote:
A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from an administrator.
Can access be denied?
Apparently not. There was very strongly expressed opinion that it is not seemly to vet new applicants, because current posters to that forum were not vetted. There are strong hold-over feelings from the invitation process. This is why I added the last point (Question 3), explicitly requiring forum posters to be proactive in ensuring ethical behaviour. Besides, if anyone behaves inappropriately, the same provisions apply as other misbehaviour would attract - hearing, etc.
Quote:
Permission for TOE you mean, not the board in general, right?
In that case I think this is fine!
Yep!
Quote:
Quote:
Question 3. The posters in the “Thinking of England” forum are explicitly required to be vigilant for inappropriate behaviour, such as an adult "grooming" a minor or other behaviour which is blatantly abusive of another’s emotional vulnerability. Posters are permitted to act on conscience when they witness such behaviour.
I like it, apart from the "grooming" bit, because I don't know what that is (too lazy to look it up :P ) - and because of what Ro said.
grooming in this case means interacting surreptitiously to instil trust and create openness in communication with the aim of ultimately taking advantage (usually applies to minors but can apply to anyone who is emotionally vulnerable).

Yes, we are aiming to disallow minors, but if one should slip in? We ought to make just-in-case provision to protect children.
Quote:
I posted this before, but it can't hurt to repeat it: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
Sigh. I know. I try to take short cuts due to lack of time.

EDIT: And Rowanberry answered Andri. :) Sorry, missed it before because I was reply/posting as I scrolled.

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Rodia
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Imp, although there's always a chance a minor will slip in there I don't think it should be put in the rules like that- it can confuse people. 'But wait a minute, so you DO allow minors in?' That kind of stuff...you know how people are...they can start thinking 'grooming' has happened before on the forum or any such nonsense. I think that what we can mention as things the members should be wary of is just harrassment or predator behaviour, or possible stalkers...because it's not just people under 18 who can be vulnerable.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 1:42 pm
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Suggested wording for q3:

Posters, when in the “Thinking of England” forum, must be even more alert to abusive or exploitive behaviour (especially taking advantage of another’s emotional vulnerability, youth, or inexperience in adult environments) than in other forums. Posters are encouraged to act on conscience when they witness such behaviour.





I wanted to stress that ToE is different more in degree than kind from the rest of the forum in terms of expectations for posters. We all should be aware of bad eggs, no matter where they pop up, but ToE is more open, thus more vulnerable to damage from them. By specifically mentioning youth, but not minors, I hope to straddle the line between guarding against something which should technically not be able to happen and making a more general sort of statement against exploitive behavior.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 1:59 pm
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<tiptoes in>

I haven't been very involved in discussions like this, but in that I have been remiss... I appreciate the opportunities this board allows for members to become involved in these decisions and I am going to try to contribute more!

First off... good job, everyone... I am so impressed with the efforts involved, here!

I have a couple of questions, though...

1. Do we need the details about ToE's header visibility and such on the front page and registration form? Do we need to reveal the name of the forum at all, in such an early communication? Is there a confirmation of registration email sent to the new registrant, where this type of info can be outlined?

It seems to me that it is enough to say, at the very earliest points of contact with a prosective member, that there is such a forum here, and that access to it is controlled.

2. I like that the newest of members are not allowed access to ToE. Perhaps this idea can be added to your first paragraph, something like:

... This board also contains an age restricted forum for discussion of topics inappropriate for children. The contents of this forum are not accessible to members who are under the age of eighteen, nor are they accessible to the newest registrants.

Again, I feel that the more details we give about our "secret" forum at the very first, the more we may attract members who are specifically, and primarily, looking for porn-type discussions.

3. I didn't know what "grooming" a youngster meant, either, just that it really didn't sound very good. :neutral: (Heck, I didn't know what "Thinking of England" meant at first, either! :oops: ) Maybe we can change the wording of that to something like:

The posters in the “Thinking of England” forum are explicitly required to be vigilant for inappropriate behaviour, such as any member choosing to blatantly abuse another’s emotional vulnerability. Posters are permitted to act on conscience when they witness such behaviour.

Again, I appreciate all the work you have put into this, folks!

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truehobbit
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 2:06 pm
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Good alternative, Ax! :)
Quote:
However - personally I'd rather not be explicit about the name of the forum - "Thinking of England" has specific sexual connotations, whereas the statement currently simply talks about subject matter inappropriate for children. Being explicit could be a flag for those salaciously inclined.

Most people who came here after the creation of the forum had no idea what "Thinking of England" had to do with sex.

Thinking about this, I realise that I don't know up to where the statement goes - initially I took this whole text to be the intended front page statement:
Quote:
Board 77 strives to be a welcoming community of high standards for all posters, young and old alike. We are a member moderated message board. We believe in being respectful and courteous to all members. Adult language is allowed, but generally occurs no more frequently than in real life. We do, however, require that members be at least thirteen years of age before joining. This board also contains an age restricted forum for discussion of topics inappropriate for children. The contents of this forum are not accessible to members who are under the age of eighteen.

All new Board registrations require affirmation on the registration form that the applicant is over 13 years of age and date of birth must be provided.

A confirmation email from the member's registration email address is required before membership is activated.

The “Thinking of England” forum header may be visible in the index but access is restricted to those who have specific permission to do so. The forum description states: "Discussion of topics inappropriate for children; not accessible to those under the age of eighteen."

A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from an administrator.
But now I think maybe I was wrong?
I realised that if the statement ends at "activated" it makes a lot more sense.
In which case my comments on the name needing to come up earlier don't hold, sorry.

(It's the break between these two paragraphs
Quote:
A confirmation email from the member's registration email address is required before membership is activated.

The “Thinking of England” forum header may be visible in the index but access is restricted to
which I find confusing, if the whole thing were to go on the front-page statement.)
Quote:
Samaranth (and others) argued that we should not hide it - that it should be visible but not accessible. I'm too tired to recap the reasons, but I'm happy either way: where is the weight of opinion?
I don't mind either way, we'd just need to know so we can change the settings.
Quote:
Whether visible or not, I don't think explanation is necessary in the statement. If the concept sticks in the mind, and they're curious, they can ask. I personally think we should make as little deal about it as possible.
I think it does make a difference, in that when it's not visible, there needs to be a half sentence added to this part: This board also contains an age restricted forum for discussion of topics inappropriate for children. The contents of this forum are not accessible to members who are under the age of eighteen. - because I don't think it makes a lot of sense to say the board contains an adult forum when the user can't see its existence. Yes, they'll need to ask, and they sure will, because they have no other way to figure out what's meant - so this way it's drawing even more attention, IMO.

Thanks for the explanation about "grooming", Imp! :)
Quote:
Sigh. I know. I try to take short cuts due to lack of time
Ok, sorry - didn't know your alarm about knowing GMT-time was meant as a joke.

Edit: Anthy, I think this is excellent
Quote:
:... This board also contains an age restricted forum for discussion of topics inappropriate for children. The contents of this forum are not accessible to members who are under the age of eighteen, nor are they accessible to the newest registrants.

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RELStuart
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 2:12 pm
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Rowanberry wrote:
Sounds good, Imp.

Andri, the three months and 100 posts requirement is just 1) so that the other members in general can get some idea of the applicant before s/he is granted access to the ToE; 2) to act as a troll filter - probably nobody who thinks that ToE is some sort of a porn forum will have patience to wait for three months and keep active on the other forums just to finally get there. At least, that's how I understood it.
This won't have any effect on current members of that forum will it? I don't have 100 posts...


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Impy, I have edited a link to the extended discussion that led to this proposal into the first post. I hope you don't mind. :)


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truehobbit
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 2:26 pm
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RELStuart wrote:

This won't have any effect on current members of that forum will it? I don't have 100 posts...
Good point, REL, but I don't think it will.
Just like for eligibility of admins, we said that everybody who is already here is eligible (because with six month presence required we'd be down to the original members ;) ).

(And even the "visible presence" clause doesn't go for people already here - I think - I guess, we just assume that someone who hasn't been around before won't volunteer to spend a lot of time adminning later.)

So, everybody who is already here, can have access to TOE, too! :)

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MariaHobbit
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RELStuart wrote:
Rowanberry wrote:
Sounds good, Imp.

Andri, the three months and 100 posts requirement is just 1) so that the other members in general can get some idea of the applicant before s/he is granted access to the ToE; 2) to act as a troll filter - probably nobody who thinks that ToE is some sort of a porn forum will have patience to wait for three months and keep active on the other forums just to finally get there. At least, that's how I understood it.
This won't have any effect on current members of that forum will it? I don't have 100 posts...
That requirement will keep 70 some odd current members out of the forum, if you look at the memberlist stats. Some people who lurk a lot will never get 100 posts, and having a post count requirement doesn't seem fair to those who read more than they post.

Maybe you could do 100 posts and/or 3 months? Of course, we have people posting there now who haven't even been here 3 months.... Three months is a long time in messageboard-land. Maybe two months? One month?

Three months is a bit long, and 100 posts is a bit unfair to quiet people.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 2:42 pm
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Just for clarity, this text is a proposed article for the charter and, once ratified by the membership, will appear there, with a summary included with the rest of the charter summary.

In other words, this isn't an email to new members or something posted on the front page; these are going to be the actual rules that govern how ToE works.

Edit: People already in ToE won't be asked to leave.

Three months is intended to be a long time; it's part of our protections against bad people getting into ToE. And 100 posts does not seem extreme to me—that's posting about once a day if it's to be done in three months. ToE is a participatory forum, more so than others, I think; I doubt the members would be comfortable with a lot of silent lurkers. I don't think it's unreasonable to bias the requirement toward people who are at least somewhat inclined to post in discussions.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 13 May , 2005 3:02 pm
Not so deep as a well
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Posts: 7360
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Location: In your wildest dreams
 
Quote:
I doubt the members would be comfortable with a lot of silent lurkers.
Except for the exhibitionists. :D Seriously, a good point, and another reason for the requirements.

BTW, REL, anyone on NOW can request to get in NOW so long as they are over 18. This is in lieu of grandfathering.

_________________

Destiny is a rhythm track on which we must improvise.

In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


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