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Discussion Article 2: Member Rights

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Jnyusa
Post subject: Discussion Article 2: Member Rights
Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 4:44 pm
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draft text ... please review this together with the paragraph on penalties in this other thread

I've number these to ease discussion. They might need to be in a different order, too.

Article 2: Member Rights and Responsibilities

¶1: We enforce the following rights and responsibilities:


1. You may post under one registered screen name if you are 13 years of age or older. It is your responsibility to provide a valid email address and to state truthfully your age for board access or entry into any forum with age restrictions.


2. You may create and register characters for use in the There and Back Again forum (a role-play forum) as long as you first record them in the RP Character Registry. LINK It is also your responsibility to post there in a way that does not prevent other characters from participating nor unnecessarily stifle the creative options of other posters.

3. You may post in languages other than English in your threads, ranks or signature texts, as long as the foreign language is not being used to conceal an insult against other posters or a violation of board rules. Posts in foreign languages should be translated upon request, preferably by several members, and the translations of posters should be trusted.

4. You have the right to post in our Thinking of England forum (a forum restricted to those who are 18 years of age or older) without fear that information will be revealed irresponsibly or maliciously in other forums or outside Board77, but also the responsibility to post prudently and not expose yourself to unnecessary harm. It is also your right and your responsibility to keep that forum free of ridicule, provocation, or demeaning posts and to report violations of our by-laws to the administrators.

5. You have the right to post without fear of intentional insults that target your nationality, ethnicity, religion, native language, gender, age or sexual orientation, and an absolute responsibility to refrain from prejudicial language yourself.

6. You have a right to post without confronting advertising spam, pornographic pictures, sexually explicit conversation outside of the age-restricted forum, and pictures or conversations of an offensively violent or distasteful nature. You have a responsibility to use good judgment in your own posts and keep them free of gratuitous advertising, spam that would annoy any reasonable person, and pictures that would disgust or dismay any reasonable person.

7. You have the right to post on Board77 without fear of viruses placed there deliberately by other members. Your own computer should be free of internet viruses and you may not deliberately inflict damage on the board or the internet access of its members by hacking or deliberate introduction of viruses.

8. PM capability is a privilege and it can be turned off if it is used to harrass other members of the board.

• You may not use the board to solicit or encourage the participation of members in illegal activities, but this shall not impinge on a member's right to speak freely regarding the shortcomings, ethical or practical, of any given law.

9. If you are accused of violating the by-laws you have a right to a Hearing, the right to appeal a Hearing under certain circumstances, and the right to petition for the reversal of a ban under certain circumstances. It is your responsibility to abide by the decisions of our juries and to use proper procedure when contesting the decisions of administrators or jurors. You should refer to Article 4 of our Charter for a full explanation of your rights under any dispute procedure.

10. If you believe that any of the above rights are being violated, you may petition the administrators for redress.

¶2: We strive to create a culture and atmosphere that will also ensure the following rights for all members of Board77:

11. The right to be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status and therefore the responsibility to treat others likewise

12. The right to express one’s thoughts on any topic, no matter how controversial, but with respect, forbearance and consideration for the context, the feelings of others, and the value of contrasting viewpoints, and without making personal attacks against other posters, as this is necessary for worthwhile conversation among adults.

13. The right to use adult language that is generally acceptable in written media, coupled with the responsibility to refrain from unnecessary cursing or obscenities. We encourage everyone to use language that is clear and contributory (not spam or netspeak) without our having to restrict the expressions that are generally found in adult conversation.

14. We have a forum, LINK, where you can resolve personal disputes without disrupting the rest of the board. You have the right to post free of such disruptions from others and the responsibility to resolve your own personal disputes in a productive fashion.

15. Because we are a member-moderated board, you will have the opportunity to serve as an administrator, mediator or juror and even to run for elected officce. It is also your responsibility to participate in the governance of the board whether simply by voting when a quorum is needed, or by serving in some official capacity.

Our purpose in establishing these member rights and responsibilities is to build a vibrant, diverse, supportive community where both conversation and signature pictures reflect our personalities, our humor, our genuine opinions, our artistic appreciation, our creativity, and above all our mutual friendship.

Last edited by Jnyusa on Fri 20 May , 2005 5:02 pm, edited 13 times in total.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 5:56 pm
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We come to it at last. The great discussion of our board. I firmly believe that this discussion will form the basis for what board77 becomes. Our Mission Statement, Purpose and Goals will reflect, to a great degree, the rights and responsibilities of our members.

As I see it there are, broadly speaking, two competing interests that need to be balanced in order for us to succeed in creating the kind of community that I think most of us want to have. The first, which I believe many feel is paramount, is the freedom to be ourselves, without fear of censorship or censure. I completely support the value of that interest. But balanced against that value must be a willingness to be sensitive to the views and sensibilities of others. I know for a fact that there are some very worthy people who have stayed away from board77 precisely because of the lack of the "self-censorship that is so essential for any civilized body" as one good friend of mine who no longer posts here so aptly put it.

I would like to see there be some kind of statement in the article on Member's Rights and Responsibilities that encourages members to consider how other people will react to the things that they post. Not to compromise our values or our selves, not to fail to be ourselves, but just to think first about how the other person(s) will react. SO MANY of the disputes and hard feelings that arise can be avoided by this simple action.

I'm not going to try to suggest specific language on this yet. I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts about this. But I will suggest one specific edit to the stuff that Jn has prepared (which, not surprisingly, I think is great). I think the following statement is great:
Quote:
• The right to be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status.
But I would like to see there be an equivalent statement:
Quote:
• The responsibility to treat with courtesy and respect all posters regardless of their status.


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Cerin
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 6:00 pm
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That looks excellent to me. Wonderful job as always, Jn. :love:



¶1:
• PM capability is a privilege



¶2:
• <snip>coupled with the responsibility to refrain from unnecessary cursing or obscenities.

This would seem to be at odds with the somewhat free use of obscenities I've noticed (though not of late -- have we evolved?).


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Cerin
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 6:02 pm
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Could an announcement be put in the Business Forum, to let the membership know that this discussion has commenced, along with a reminder that their comments are desired in the 'Dirt and Wires' thread?


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Eruname
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 6:18 pm
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Quote:
You may post under one registered avatar if you are 13 years of age or older. It is your responsibility to provide a valid email address and to state truthfully your age for board access or entry into any forum with age restrictions.
I've always thought an avatar was the image you had under your name. It may be silly (or wrong) but I'd prefer the word 'name' or 'screen name'.
Voronwe wrote:
I know for a fact that there are some very worthy people who have stayed away from board77 precisely because of the lack of the "self-censorship that is so essential for any civilized body" as one good friend of mine who no longer posts here so aptly put it.
I thought we've been fairly good about that sort of thing (except for the TORC threads). Was this in reference to the threads that got moved to ToE?
Cerin wrote:
This would seem to be at odds with the somewhat free use of obscenities I've noticed (though not of late -- have we evolved?).
I agree with Cerin. I'm not sure how to word it that profanity is allowed, but to use one's best judgement though.

I don't want to see anymore announcements made in the business forum. It still seems too cluttered with all that stuff stuck at the top. A simple bump of the Dirt and Wires thread would be sufficient I think.

Very nice job Jn. You've done a great job covering everything and I'm glad to see that we've reached this stage. Thank you for cracking the whip! [ img ]

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 7:44 pm
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Very good draft, Jny, and good comments everyone, but I have some little quibbles.

Firstly, I also thought what Eru said: I think the avatar is the pic you can use below your name - why not just ID? Or the suggestions Eru made.

I think it's a bit strange that good behaviour in RP gets stressed first and foremost.
I would cut the part after "Link".
Quote:
You have the right to post in our Thinking of England forum (an age-restricted forum)

I think this should have an addition: "when you're 18 years of age or older"

Voronwe, that's a beautifully worded post, but I have to advise caution on the other side of the issue, I feel.
Quote:
I know for a fact that there are some very worthy people who have stayed away from board77 precisely because of the lack of the "self-censorship that is so essential for any civilized body" as one good friend of mine who no longer posts here so aptly put it.
I have never heard of anyone leaving for any reason but that the board is closed - interesting (sounds a bit like Whistler ;) ).

But, like Eru said, I think we are doing pretty well in that respect, so I don't know what else we could do, short of curtailing free speech.
Quote:
I would like to see there be some kind of statement in the article on Member's Rights and Responsibilities that encourages members to consider how other people will react to the things that they post. Not to compromise our values or our selves, not to fail to be ourselves, but just to think first about how the other person(s) will react. SO MANY of the disputes and hard feelings that arise can be avoided by this simple action.

From experience, I can say that there is no way to assess how anyone will react to something I post.
The only way to make sure no one gets offended would be to stick to small talk and hugs and other sweet and charming inanity, IMO.

I have no problem with the courtesy and respect clause - but in the light of what you just said, I would actually like to have some admonition to be tolerant of views contrary to your own.
So, if there were a clause like you say, I think it should read something like:
Quote:
Please try to consider the feelings of others when you post, and remember that other people may express views in complete contrast to your own.
(I think I had meant to say some more things, but that's enough for one post. :) )

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We listen to one another, make good-faith efforts to understand one another, and we treat one another respectfully at all times.


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laureanna
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 7:52 pm
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Technically, an avatar is a helper or guide. In some early cyberpunk (Neuromancer) it was the crude representation of self used in 3D representations of on-line communities.

I'd stick with screen name. But I don't like the idea that law-abiding B77 members are limited to one screen name. I think I'll start a thread on it.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 8:20 pm
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laureanna, I think that is needed if we want to continue to have membership votes!

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We listen to one another, make good-faith efforts to understand one another, and we treat one another respectfully at all times.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 8:22 pm
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Hobby, the language that you proposed is very close to what I had in mind. :) I could support that with no changes.

I'm not asking that people be constrained to posting small talk and hugs and other sweet and charming inanity, nor am asking Sagitarians to not say what they mean with complete and devastating frankness (being one myself ;)). I'm just asking that people try to avoid unnecessarily causing hurt feelings because they did not consider how the other person would react.

I also believe that people learn more when they really try to consider views that are antithetical to their own. Eru, I agree that that happens a lot here, but I'd like to encourage it happen more, and to be one of the guiding principals of board77. As I said above, I would be completely happy if the language that Hobby proposed were adopted.


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 8:34 pm
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I think it goes beyond hurt feelings. I don't think it's unreasonable to urge that people consider (a) the context and (b) other people's sensibilities before posting things that are allowed here but that might offend other people.

I don't mean self-censorship. It's just—in real life we edit our words for context all the time; we say things in some places that we would never say in others. In some threads a dirty joke is half the point and everyone reading the thread probably enjoys it; in others it's gratuitous and selfish to post something like that because it's a "serious" thread, or because the people there are not likely to appreciate it and might be upset.

I'd urge that posters just give the same thought to context and audience that they would give before using strong language or telling a dirty joke in RL. A night out with the girls is one thing; an academic symposium is something entirely else.

Obviously this goes in the "unenforceable" section. :)

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 9:07 pm
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Avatar is a Sanskrit word (avatarah) literally meaning "he crosses down" and used in reference to a deity descending from heaven and assuming an earthly presence.

It has a more general meaning as a temporary manifestation of someone or something that has a permanent, normal existence.

It was adopted within the Unix community to identify a user assuming root privileges (superuser), which seems the inverse of the original use. You appear to be a normal user, when you are in fact root (god), as opposed to someone logged in directly as root and visible as such.

Its use within the internet community is rather anarchic. Sometimes it refers to the complete alternate identity and sometimes it refers to just the icon. Either one may be fixed or variable in relation to a site. Given its original meaning, it is intended to include both the image and the name.

On B77, the image aspect of the avatar is variable and in practice not limited to an alternate representation of the member, but something they choose to reveal of themselves. The name (ID) portion of the avatar is used and is expected to be the single representation of a RL person.

Prim,

Something like, "Please consider the content of your post within the context of the thread."

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 9:42 pm
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Voronwe:
But I would like to see there be an equivalent statement:

• The right to be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status and therefore the resonsibility to treat others likewise

Would that cover it?

Cerin:privilege

Fixed. Thank you.

Could an announcement be put in the Business Forum

I’ll bump the Dirt & Wires thread in a few moments

EruI've always thought an avatar was the image

Changed to ‘screen name’ as requested by several people

Truehobbit:good behaviour in RP gets stressed first and foremost.

These are in no particular order. They should in fact be rearranged. Suggestions welcome.

Please try to consider the feelings of others when you post, and remember that other people may express views in complete contrast to your own. plus similar suggestions by Prim, Voronwe and Idylle ...

I’m thinking that in ¶2, this one could be modified as follows:

• The right to express one’s thoughts on any topic, no matter how controversial, but with respect, restraint and consideration for the context, the feelings of others, and the value of contrasting viewpoints, as this is necessary for wothwhile conversation among adults.

Would that cover it? The original essence of this clause came from Din.

laureanna, When I signed on, I saw your thread in the Business Forum and replied to it before making my way down here. It really makes a mess if we carry individual committee issues out to the membership in separate threads. When I bump the Dirt&Wires thread I will put in a link to the similar thread in the Bike Racks where members can express their views. We can always solicit views on particular topics up for discussion, but we try to do it in a way that avoids redundancy.

Would you mind terribly to lock or delete the extra thread in the Business Forum? Thanks!

Jn

edit: also added >18 to the TOE clause ... forgot who mentioned that.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 10:05 pm
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Quote:
Voronwe:
But I would like to see there be an equivalent statement:

• The right to be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status and therefore the responsibility to treat others likewise

Would that cover it?
Yup. :)
Quote:
I’m thinking that in ¶2, this one could be modified as follows:

• The right to express one’s thoughts on any topic, no matter how controversial, but with respect, restraint and consideration for the context, the feelings of others, and the value of contrasting viewpoints, as this is necessary for wothwhile conversation among adults.

Would that cover it?
Yup. :)


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Holbytla
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Posted: Sun 15 May , 2005 10:49 pm
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I am going to try and not get deep into this for varying reasons.
I just want everyone to bear a couple of things in mind. One is that there is no way to please everyone. Two, I think we have pretty much established who we are, I don't see that changing, nor do I think it should.
If there are people who are reluctant to post here now, I can't see any way that is going to be altered by this convention.
In order to get poster x to a place where they are comfortable here, that will probably ensure that posters y and z will leave.
I think we do a decent job keeping things under control here, and there is little over the top language or subject matter.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Mon 16 May , 2005 12:05 am
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Thanks, Voronwe! :)

Sorry to be a little nitpicky, when my point has met with approval, but I feel I should comment again.

Prim you are quite right, but I think what you say, and what I've been thinking about are two different things.

Not realising that a dirty joke in a serious and personal discussion about a difficult problem for example will be out of line would really be a failing in a poster - and something another poster may ask to edit!

What I was thinking of was really just hurt feelings because of different opinions.
Do I need to think twice before I say, for example, that I personally have a strong dislike for the military (and then going on to give reasons ...) just because someone who is in the military might take offense at that?
I don't think I should have to worry about that - it's my opinion that I'm expressing, and if someone just totally loves the military I'd nevertheless want them to respect my opinion and not take offense at it, as long as I don't call them names or so.
Otherwise it's not possible to discuss anything, because any subject might mean more to some people than I would expect (and hence I'm not able to assess the effects of my posts on people's feelings).

Heck, before coming to TORC I would not have thought it possible that a person could get angry at another just for expressing even a slight dislike for a certain movie! And I really think it's the person who gets angry, not the one who dares to have a differing opinion, who is out of line.

I guess it's human to get angry on such occasions - I'm pretty sure I've got angry for such silly reasons myself! But it's still not possible, I think, to expect of anyone to foresee such reactions.
Hence my suggestion for the text.

Jny, I'm willing to go along with Voronwe, as he agreed to my text and did agree to yours, so maybe they are the same, and I just don't see it, but at first reading I wasn't so sure whether
Quote:
The right to express one’s thoughts on any topic, no matter how controversial, but with respect, restraint and consideration for the context, the feelings of others, and the value of contrasting viewpoints, as this is necessary for wothwhile conversation among adults.
isn't a bit prohibitive sounding and not quite the same as my suggestion.

As to prohibitive: "restraint" seems to me a very strong word, effectively inhibiting discussion I think - respect and consideration are enough, IMO.

And I'm not sure whether "the value of contrasting viewpoints" in the context it has now still means that the member who encounters contrasting viewpoints should respect them - it sounds more like you shouldn't deprecate contrasting viewpoints. Which is true, too, but not what I had meant. (Not sure if I'm reading it right, though)

(Oh, and there's an "r" missing in "worthwhile". ;) )

Holby, good points, too - there'll always be someone who doesn't like the style of the board. I agree that everybody needs to watch themselves for not going over the top, so a few injunctions on courtesy are fine, I think - but we need to take care not to stifle the vibrancy of discussion here. Not that I see a danger of that happening, though! :)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 16 May , 2005 12:15 am
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TH: Well, first of all, I was trying to make the suggestions of you and Voronwe fit somehow to the clause that Din had already proposed ... that was some time ago, but I save these things when I see them.

"Restraint" - I was thinking 'self-restraint' and perhaps it would be better to say that, or perhaps better to eliminate this word. It doesn't matter to me. Whichever you want.

"value of contrasting viewpoints' - I think it's important not to denigrate differing views, but I'd like to go a bit father in a charter and make this a positive encouragement, that we should place value on the fact that we have access to views from different cultures, religions, etc. I personally place a very high value on diversity and I would like that to be part of the culture of the board.

Just for example, if you look at the text of the charter we are creating, there is no person on either committee who has not contributed something that ended up in the text, whether a whole clause or paragraph, or a refinement, or an idea ... we have disagreed strongly on a number of issues during the course of our discussion, and yet everyone has been represented somewhere in the final version.

This confluence is something we should strive for, I think, and even though it would be foolish to write a little essay about it in the charter :) I have purposely chosen words that will reflect a striving for diverse expression and not just tolerance for it.

Jn

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 16 May , 2005 2:48 am
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Have read...am now absorbing. Will comment at a later point if there is anything that strikes me, but at the moment I'm in agreement.

Re Hobby's suggestion: I think including the term 'self-restraint' would be a good thing but otherwise in agreement (esp with V's suggestion that we have responsibilities to others than balance our rights)

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laureanna
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Posted: Mon 16 May , 2005 5:22 am
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There doesn't seem to be a "touching base" thread for the conventioneers, so I'll say it here. I really don't have enough energy to deal with what real life is slinging at me, and keep up with this convention process, and be an admin. I think that withdrawing from this group would be less disruptive than withdrawing from my admin duties, so I'm officially withdrawing here.

[Edited to remove unnecessarily flippant remark. Sorry about that.]

Last edited by laureanna on Mon 16 May , 2005 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 16 May , 2005 6:14 am
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Jnyusa,

Your wording is fine as it stands, except for the odd disappearance of the "p" from responsibility in the first change that shows up in V's quote, and the "wothwhile" that TH pointed out.

I prefer "restraint" to "self-restraint".

The "value of contrasting viewpoints" is valid from any perspective.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Mon 16 May , 2005 10:26 am
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Been reading and thinking and then I've pulled the dictionary out. One word I'm missing in those articles is tolerance - but that by itself would not fit in and besides, I wanted it combined with self-restraint.

The dictionary came up with forbearance = Tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; patience

Now I'm not a native english speaker and so I must ask you, would it make sense to use forbearance e.g.
Quote:
The right to express one’s thoughts on any topic, no matter how controversial, but with respect, forbearance as well as with consideration for the context, the feelings of others, and the value of contrasting viewpoints, as this is necessary for worthwhile conversation among adults.

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