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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 6:11 pm
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I'm so confused. Okay, so things are moving ahead as they have been then? Sounds good to me.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 7:19 pm
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Thank you, Voronwe. :)

I will add that after the Charter is ratified and the board is open, if we want to revisit this issue and allow multiple IDs WE STILL CAN.

The charter will not be carved in stone. It is not ephemeral either, but we can ALWAYS hold a vote of the membership post-ratification the adapt the charter to our changing needs. The charter itself will say how to do that. :)

Jn

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laureanna
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 7:52 pm
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OK, I'll tell my other IDs they'll just have to wait a little longer to get into B77, if and when it opens up to multiple IDs. :roll:
Cerin wrote:
I think people have gone out of their way to assure you of their support for your sincere use of multiple ids, yet you seem determined to take offense regardless of their efforts to be supportive.

Using an alternate id is hiding something. That isn't an aspersion, it's a fact.
Sorry, but when people put down another group, especially if they say "well of course, we don't mean you", and especiallly when they brush off their actions as inconsequential, I feel put down anyway. Heck, I even feel put down when people talk disrespectfully about a group I don't belong in. :scratch Perhaps I am pressing a point that is wider than just multiple IDs. I am concerned with how much negative sterotyping is going on in this thread.

I realize people-with-multiple-identities is not a protected class, but I know people in that class, and on none of them would I use some of the adjectives that some of you have been tossing around. But I'm sure your sterotyping is not including those particular people. Right?

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 8:13 pm
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If I'm understanding you correctly, laureanna, what you seem to be saying is that it isn't acceptable for people to discuss their bad experiences interacting with users of multiple ids, because that is stereotyping all users of multiple ids. I think you're wrong. :) I don't think talking about the questionable uses of multiple ids, and expressing concern for their impact on the future of the board, stereotypes all users of multiple ids.

I am very sorry that the discussion is making you feel stereotyped and criticized. I appreciate you sticking around in spite of it!

:)


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tinwe
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 8:22 pm
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I have a technical question regarding this issue. The draft text of the Members Rights Article currently states the following:
Quote:
Article 2: Member Rights and Responsibilities

¶1: We enforce the following rights and responsibilities:


1. You may post under one registered screen name if you are 13 years of age or older. It is your responsibility to provide a valid email address and to state truthfully your age for board access or entry into any forum with age restrictions.


2. You may create and register characters for use in the There and Back Again forum (a role-play forum) as long as you first record them in the RP Character Registry. LINK It is also your responsibility to post there in a way that does not prevent other characters from participating nor unnecessarily stifle the creative options of other posters.
The implication here is that you may not post under alternate screen names outside of the RP forum, however, there is nothing in the draft text for the article on Offenses That Merit A Penalty stating this or the penalty for doing so. Shouldn’t there be?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 8:23 pm
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laureanna,

Not everyone who posts with multiple ID's is a member of the same "group." This is not a discrimination issue. We're not persecuting all people who post with multiple ID's.

I am hardly aware of your IDs on TORC - I know you spelled you name backwards in one of them, and at one point you listed your ID's there but I don't remember what they were and I also don't care. I am not afraid of YOU using multiple ID's on this board. Nor am I afraid of Louie or the Mongolian throat singers, etc.

But do I know people who abused their multiple ID's? YES. There were two Mods on TORC who routinely lambasted posters using their regular ID and then switched to the Mod ID to play all innocent, and above all give their regular ID a latitude of abuse that NO ONE ELSE could have gotten away with.

Are these people likely to show up here the minute we open? You betcha. Will they be entitled to sit on juries? YES! Will they be entitled to be admins? YES! I honestly do not want to immediately bestow upon people whom I know to be deceitful the power to practice that deceit here, on top of all the other potential powers we are giving them. And those few people are just the tip of the iceberg ... there will be others, good, bad, better and worse.

So I think that the suggestion made above is a good compromise - just wait awhile before doing this. (Noting that the committee still has to vote and the committee may in fact approve multiple IDs.)

Multiple ID's will require a lot of adjustment. It IS very different from the way we operate now. My own hope is that we will be allowed to adjust to one major change at a time.

Jn

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 8:24 pm
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tinwe, I think we've decided to wait for the Member Rights article to be voted on before we add multiple id specifics to the Penalties section.

:)


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laureanna
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 8:27 pm
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You are not understanding me correctly, but thank you for trying to clarify. You know you are welcome to do just about anything on B77, including everything that has been done on this thread. Talking about bad apples in your past life is something we do all the time. It helps us to be wary of bad apples we might encounter in the future. It can keep us safe. It can also keep us from new and interesting experiences.

Expressing concern based upon bad past experiences is certainly acceptable. But painting all members of a group with a broad brush sometimes reaches the point of sterotyping. Making the kind of statement "All people who X are Y", is often a case of making a sterotype. Sterotypes bother me. But I can handle it. Thanks for caring. :D

Any more thoughts yea or nea or however you spell that concerning multiple IDs?

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Holbytla
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 9:33 pm
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It seems to me the issue is becoming blurred.
Or maybe it is just me that is blurred.
The issue is not like or dislike of alternate ID's. The issue is whether they should be allowed. If we are going to debate all of our likes and dislikes we will be here for eons, and get nowhere.
I have no particular affinity for the works of Howard Shore, nor am I interested in discussing them. However there are people who do like to discuss his works. There is obviously a place here for that type of discussion. It is right and appropriate whether I like it or not.
The question or issue here is whether there is a place for alternate ID's on this board, not whether we like them.
The obvious answer is yes. We do allow alternate ID's here, with the stipulation that they remain in the RP forum. There is a right and proper place for alternate ID's on this board.
So now the question really boils down to whether the alternate ID's can post outside of the RP forum.
Now if you would take a look at the link that I provided a page or two back, leading to Hama's post. That post, which I admire and think pretty funny, would not work without alternate ID's.
Well one solution would be to relegate that type of post to the RP forum.
I believe that would be within the current rules of this board.
I am not sure how well that would go over with the RP crowd. Probably not too well I think. Relegating that type of post to only the RP forum would almost assure that most of the posters here would never see it.

Another possible solution would be to relegate alternate ID's to the Turf and RP forums.
However from what I am gathering from the dissenters here is that there is a fear of deceit from alternate ID's, but that fear doesn't seem to be realized in the RP forum. Is there no way to allow alternate ID's in the Turf forum without posters being fearful of deceit?
Disallowing any meaningful polls in the Turf and RP forum would solve the issue of voting with alternate ID's, and it seems to me that putting an asterisk at the end of an alternate ID would eliminate any fear of deceit.

I have two proposals. There seems to be some sentiment for tabling this discussion until after we open. If that proves to be the case, then I would like to see something akin to the following out into the charter;

At this time alternate ID's are allowed only in the RP forum for the purpose of character development (or whatever). However the issue of allowing alternate ID's in the Turf forum as well will be revisited however many days or months after the board becomes open to the public.

If this discussion is not going to be tabled, then I propose the following to be addressed by the convention;

Alternate ID's are allowed in the TURF and RP forum. However alternate ID's must be accompanied by an asterisk at the end of the ID. Alternate ID's are to be used for the purpose of character enhancement, spoof, and entertainment only. Any maliscious use of alternate ID's (deception etc.)are subject to punishment in accordance with the charter. The originating user is responsible for the Alternate ID and must abide by the charter while using the Alternate ID. All potential punishments will be borne by the originating user.
Alternate ID's must be requested from the current Admins and approved by them. Admins will confirm the request via PM to the originating poster via his/her "real" ID. A list of all Alternate ID's with attached usernames will be kept by the Mayor. The Mayor and Admins will only reveal the usernames associated with the Alternate ID's if an indisgression arises.


The wording is lousy and needs to be altered.

I may not be a big fan of RP, discussing Howard Shore or what have you, but I can see that others are fans. I do not denigrate their interests and it saddens me to see people denigrate the interests I and others have.
Because one cannot see the pleasure or value in something does not mean it is worthless.

Comments?

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 10:06 pm
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Quote:
But painting all members of a group with a broad brush sometimes reaches the point of sterotyping.
On a second read of some of Jn's posts concerning alternate IDs, I notice she did not paint ALL users of these are bad, but alluded to those who will use it for nefarious purposes. I don't think any stereotyping (as it is commonly understood) has gone on here, but some people have focused on the bad aspects of alternate IDs rather than the good.

I focused on the bad, Holby focused on the good (for example).

Maybe we can solve this alternate ID issue with a separate goof and games forum. I don't necessarily think adding another forum for games and such is THE answer, especially since we goof off in all the forums, but it is a possible answer to the dilemma.
Quote:
Because one cannot see the pleasure or value in something does not mean it is worthless.
Quite right, but I (for example) do not have to hold the things you value to the same esteem. I don't like RPing anymore, and I don't think anyone's denigrated the RPers here at all, but I'm certainly not going to value RP IDs as highly as those who do and I shouldn't be expected to.

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 10:38 pm
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Holby, I think the issue of multiple IDs is more than a question of affinity. Discussing Howard Shore can do no harm to anyone, whereas there are those who feel that the use of multiple IDs has the potential for harm (because of the possibility of willful deception, which if practiced would have a deleterious effect on the character of the board).

I do not believe people are denigrating an interest in sincere, appropriate use of multiple IDs; I think people are only denigrating the idea of malicious use of multiple IDs. In other words, I don't think anyone here is opposing multiple IDs simply because they do not personally have an interest in using them; that would be ignorant and selfish. I think the opposition is because of the potential people see for harm.

I like your idea of adding a paragraph mentioning the fact that the question of multiple IDs outside of RP will be revisited some time in the near future (if the issue is temporarily tabled).

I don't see a problem with the idea of the asterisk. I think I would have enjoyed Hama's posts just as much if his alternate names had had an asterisk next to them. It isn't as if we didn't know it was a joke. I'm not sure I see the need for restricting the alternate IDs to Turf and RP. I think it might work just to exclude them from Business, and have all votes in Business.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 10:55 pm
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Holby, as I said, the issue is not going to be tabled, it is going to be voted on by the committee, probably next week. I hope to have a draft ballot on all of Member's Rights and and Responsibilities done this weekend. I will definitely be using your suggestion as a basis for one of the options on this issue.

Thanks for your wise words.


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Holbytla
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 11:10 pm
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Cerin I may have been wrong in what I said.
When I read these comments I took them to be denigrating. I apologize if that isn't the case.
Quote:
They serve no purpose except clog the server with alternative info, give more to admin’s to do to look after them (ok so it is unlikely that we will have many more forums but as somebody who set up several, it is annoying organising permissions for them all).

Oh, and they are a fab vehicle for spam. That would seem to be the best, and most common, use of alternative id’s (outside RP).
And also Cerin I do understand people's fears, and I do realize that is part of the issue. The fact remains however that we do allow alternate ID's here. A method to help allay those fears has been presented. I am definitely open to more suggestions on how to allay those fears even more. It does however seem to me that there is a certain dichotomy with people's perceptions of alternate ID's, and that is what I was trying to get at.


Voronwë whatever you think is best. As I said earlier I am not going to live or die by this issue. In fact I don't think alternate ID's are really the issue. I think the issue is learning how to accept other people, their likes and dislikes, and somehow managing to make everyone comfortable enough to exist here.
I can honestly say that I need to do a better job of hearing the other person, and being more accepting of alternate ideas and ways of thinking.
I also need to chose to not be angry, because anger is a choice.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 11:18 pm
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More wise words from teh Holbster. :)


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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 11:32 pm
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Holby, I stand corrected. To say "They serve no purpose except clog the server" is denigrating even benign use of multiple IDs.

Quote:
It does however seem to me that there is a certain dichotomy with people's perceptions of alternate ID's, and that is what I was trying to get at.
I see. Thank you for clarifying. :)


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laureanna
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Posted: Fri 20 May , 2005 1:22 am
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Looks like we have reached something of a preponderance, if not a consensus. (Notice I am avoiding the use of hard and fast percentages. :roll:)No officially allowed secondary IDs except as formal RP players in the RP forum.

For now, anyway.

There will be stealth alternate IDs, just as there are illegal immigrants. I know I will feel the need to have one at some point, and will simply post in that guise from a nearby coffee shop, that has its own IP address. Other future members who may be, as some of you have suggested, of a less savory nature, will also be getting alternate IDs.

I suggest you address this in the "offenses that merit penalty" thread that is currently under discussion, and add ID policing to the Admins' duties. How you will prove who an alternate ID is, short of a confession, is beyond me. For a penalty, I suppose you will have to ban both the primary and secondary ID for some time. Not that it will stop anyone. I did not post from an alternate ID while banned on TORC, though the temptation was great, but I noticed that some of the others did go ahead and post. Some of TheDaimonLucifer's most thoughtful posts in Manwe, by the way, were under an assumed name, after banning.

As I see it, there will be a subculture of alternate IDs, but only by those who are crafty in the ways of concealment. There will be fewer alternative IDs, and they will be for the serious, and most would say deceptive, purpose of hiding the identity of the owner. Since there will be fewer alternative IDs, there may be fewer people getting burned. On the other hand, there may be more naivete on the part of those who don't expect that those they post with are alternative IDs.

C'est la vie.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 20 May , 2005 1:43 am
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You know I am doing my best to broker some kind of agreement that everone can live with. Yet people still feel the need to polarize things.
Big fat whateva.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 20 May , 2005 2:59 am
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Holby, your suggestions are very good. We don't have to write into the charter what we're going to revisit in the future as long as someone is keeping track of these issues that will become 'future agenda'

I've got a few things like that on my hard drive and we can perhaps compile a list when we reach the end of Article 2.

For now, I would suggest that ideas about text and intentions, etc. get posted in the Jury Room where Voronwe can assemble them into a ballot.

Jn

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 20 May , 2005 4:40 am
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As soon as the board is public, I'm sure we'll find a practical solution our dilemma with alternate IDs, especially after we've had some trials and tribulations.

Good suggestions Holby.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Fri 20 May , 2005 7:41 am
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Thank you Holby.
Quote:
I also need to chose to not be angry, because anger is a choice.
And that way leads to the dark side. Well said :cheers

The value of something must be seen in the value it gives self and others, and is hindered only by the ill effects it gives to self and others.

Still not sure you understood the points raised but then again you may not have spent hours discussing something with new two alternate id's for the same person.

But you are right, not everybody with alternative id's are bad, and it is wrong to sugest that :roll:

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