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VOTE OVER: Members Rights & Responsibilies

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 4:39 am
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What have I gotten myself into. *faints*

No, just kidding. Good suggestions all. Jn, I like the "You have a right ..." and "You have the responsibility ..." construction. I'm even happy with combining the rights and responsibilities in the unenforceables.

As for what to vote on, and what not to vote on, I think our policy should be when in doubt, vote. I agree that some of the discussion items can be eliminated through the discussion, but there are definitely some things that people are saying don't need to be voted on that I think do need to be voted on.

Does anyone else have any objection for going with this revised structure?
In the other , now-locked thread, Jnyusa wrote:
I thought we would vote on both Penalties and Rights at the same time. Once they're both nailed down and mutually consistent we can vote on both.
Jn, my initial intention was to try to create a joint ballot for both Rights and Penalties in this thread. But when I saw how complicated just rights would be, it gave me pause. Still, I think that might be the best course, since they do overlap so much.


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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 5:40 am
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Cerin,

Thank you.


Did someone say "tuples". :love:


I wish I had time to respond to the details. I have 2 more days left in my RL ordeal. My days have been ending at sunrise lately.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 5:49 am
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<fans Voronwe and waves salts under his nose>

It will all be worth it. You told me a long time ago that this was going to be the toughest section, and you were right, but it's coming together nicely now.

Or at least we can dream that it is, as long as Idylle is too distracted to deconstruct it. :P

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 7:17 am
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Prim,

Better hurry, only 34 hours left. I've been saving it up and I will be looking for something to vent my frustrations on. :rage:

Actually, I'll probably collapse for a day. Speaking of gone, is TORN expected back?

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 12:46 pm
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TORN's withdrawn from the committee and is not on the board much at present. RL concerns, I believe.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 1:07 pm
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I'm even happy with combining the rights and responsibilities in the unenforceables.

Voronwe, please don't say this. :Q That's what the Article was like before we did anything to it!

Re ballots, I did not mean that we would put Member Rights and Penalites all on one ballot, but that we would vote on the two ballots concurrently. For members who don't get here everyday, it's easier that way.

As soon as this looks like a draft ballot ready to be posted, I'll put a draft ballot up in the other thread as well.

Some of the above wording probably should be voted on ... there was no opposition to "personal attacks" but there did seem to be two solid opinions for and against "intentional". But people will have a chance to look at the draft and add anything they think should be voted on.

I wish folks would express some preference on the minor issues, though, so that we don't have to vote on things like how each sentence will begin.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 1:19 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
I'm even happy with combining the rights and responsibilities in the unenforceables.

Voronwe, please don't say this. :Q That's what the Article was like before we did anything to it!
Jn, now I am completely confused. Isn't combining the rights and responsibilities in the unenforceable section exactly what you have just proposed:

[quote]¶2: Rights and responsibilities that rest on the determination of all members to keep Board77 a pleasant place for all to post but are not enforceable by procedures and penalties outlined in the Charter

18. The right to be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status, and the responsibility to treat others likewise.

19. The right to express your thoughts on any topic, no matter how controversial. All members should strive to Post with respect, forbearance and consideration for the context, the feelings of others, the value of contrasting viewpoints, and without making personal attacks against other posters. This is necessary for worthwhile conversation among adults. [several members want to remove phrae in first sentece and entire last sentence]

20. The right to use adult language that is generally acceptable in written media, along with the responsibility to refrain from unnecessary cursing or obscenities. We encourage everyone to use language that is clear and contributory (not spam or netspeak) without our having to restrict the expressions that are generally found in adult conversation.

21. The right to post free of disruptions caused by the personal disputes of others; and the right to address a personal dispute with another member in the Bike Racks forum if the other member agrees. You are also entitled to mediation. It is your responsibility to resolve your own personal disputes in a productive fashion, and not to interfere with other members who are doing the same. [enforceable or unenforceable? appears both places for now; Cerin suggests removal of phrase in blue]

22. The right to serve as an administrator, mediator or juror and to run for elected office. It is also your responsibility to participate in the governance of the board whether simply by voting when a quorum is needed, or by serving in some official capacity.[/quote]

Quote:
Re ballots, I did not mean that we would put Member Rights and Penalites all on one ballot, but that we would vote on the two ballots concurrently. For members who don't get here everyday, it's easier that way.
Good. I agree.
Quote:
Some of the above wording probably should be voted on ... there was no opposition to "personal attacks" but there did seem to be two solid opinions for and against "intentional". But people will have a chance to look at the draft and add anything they think should be voted on.
Again, I agree.
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I wish folks would express some preference on the minor issues, though, so that we don't have to vote on things like how each sentence will begin.
I don't think that we need to vote on that.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 1:25 pm
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Isn't combining the rights and responsibilities in the unenforceable section exactly what you have just proposed:

Ack! Someone wave salt under my nose! Yes, you're right. I looked at your sentence and thought it said 'enforceable.' Ignore me. I hardly slept last night.

Jn

edit: I'll be back from work midafternoon. If you like, I'll edit this up to reflect current discussion and send you a suggested draft ballot by email, Voronwe. In fact, I'll send you by email a draft ballot for both articles. Maybe we can smooth out the ballot together before posting it and accepting additional small refinements from the members.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 2:04 pm
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That would be great, Jn. Thanks. :love:


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 4:28 pm
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I'd like to encourage that ALL discussion of both rights/responsibilities and penalties be done in this thread.

I would also like to post both ballots in this thread, so that when we vote we can make sure that we are properly coordinating between the two. I know it will be a lot, but I don't see how someone could properly vote on enforceable rights without voting on offenses that merit penalties at the same time.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 5:27 pm
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Voronwe -

I just sent you two draft ballots to look over for completeness.

I do think it is easier to keep the ballots separate. We voted on four ballots in four threads simultaneously for the Hearings ... I thought it worked out fairly well because we did not confuse which ballot was having refinements suggested.

With the exception of the 'abusive language' clause, the Penalties ballot has not been controversial, and some of the things in that Article cannot even be voted on because they are already mandated by Article 3.

Jn

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 9:00 pm
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Friends.....I must admit I'm feeling totally lost in here. I've just seen and read through the draft ballot Jny posted in the other thread and I find it good.

I'll have to print out the one in here and compare it to the other one point by point - I simply can't do it by switching windows back and forth. Hope I'll get to it with a clear head tomorrow morning.

One thing though, I definitely preferr the "To" structure. The simpler and less repetitve the better :) (which also makes me hope that we can simplify this whole wording even more).
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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 9:09 pm
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Alandriel -

I'll have to print out the one in here and compare it to the other one point by point

The one in here has not been posted yet. It might be a good idea to wait until Voronwe puts it up. Might be easier to compare. For example, the "to" construction is in the ballot V. has ... and other things on which there appeared to be consensus have been eliminated as choices. And right now there's three versions posted in this thread. So it *is* confusing.

Voronwe will probably get the ballot up sometime today (might be nighttime in Europe) but I think it would save you some work to wait.

Jn

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 9:31 pm
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Thanks Jny - will definitely wait then. After a day helping out as an asstistant at school with 30 7-year olds I can't even find the print button. I seriously don't know how any primary teacher survives the day sane.
Will check back tomorrow

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 23 May , 2005 11:08 pm
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Okay, I have posted the ballot. It is mostly Jn's work, based on my initial post here. I did add one question and tweaked a few things. Jn, you had No. 14 in blue, but no question about it, so I removed the blue.

Hopefully we can vote on this and Penalties within a couple of days.


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Cerin
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Posted: Tue 24 May , 2005 12:51 am
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Voronwe, each numbered question appears as 'Questions' (in the plural). Do you want to fix that?

Regarding Question 2 (enforceable right #4), I think the explanatory text is confusing, and the set up for the vote is confusing and unnecessary.

Re the explanatory text, I think there's no need to say 'this appears under enforceable rights,' because we're looking at it in enforceable rights. I would suggest:

This right is also listed in the unenforceable section (#21 below). There is a question of where it should appear, whether in enforceables, in unenforceables or in both sections, because admins have the power to split argumentative threads and send them to the Bike Racks, but we cannot force members to participate in a Bike Racks thread. Your choice here is to indicate if you want this right to appear in this (the enforceable rights) section. You will also vote below, to indicate whether you want this right to appear in the unenforceable section. You may vote to include this right in both sections, or you may vote to exclude it from both sections.

Regarding the vote set up (and referring to my suggestion above), I think there is no need to cloud the issue with a choice referrencing moving the right, since there is a separate vote in unenforceables. I would suggest (contingent upon the acceptance of the text suggested above):

PLEASE CHOOSE ONE:

A. I want this right to be listed here (under enforceable rights).

B. I do not want this right to be listed here (under enforceable rights).



Right #7, can you fix the text flow?


Regarding the text of right #10

10. To refrain from personal attacks or intentional insults that target another member's nationality, ethnicity, religion, native language, gender, age or sexual orientation, to remove any unintentional insults that target another member's nationality, ethnicity, religion, native language, gender, age or sexual orientation and to refrain from using a foreign language to conceal insults of this nature.

I would suggest:

10. To refrain from personal attacks or intentional insults that target another member's nationality, ethnicity, religion, native language, gender, age or sexual orientation, to remove unintentional insults of this nature, and to refrain from using a foreign language to conceal insults of this nature.

Note that there is an extra 'removed' in the text as it now appears for Question 5

C. I want the phrase, to remove any unintentional insults that target another member's nationality, ethnicity, religion, native language, gender, age or sexual orientation to be removed removed but wish to retain the phrase personal attacks.


Questions 6: Concerning the other clauses of ¶1, B.
Responbilities


This gave me a moment's confusion (because of the lettered choices above it), so I would suggest ¶1, B. Responsibilities be put in red on one line, thus:
Question 6: Concerning the other clauses of ¶1, B. Responsibilities


Regarding the wording of ¶2, is there any reason not to have the same construction as in ¶1, i.e.?

¶2: Rights and responsibilities that rest on the determination of all members to keep Board77 a pleasant place for all to post but are not enforceable by procedures and penalties outlined in the Charter (can you fix your blue color here, Voronwe?)

You have the Right:

18. To be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status and the responsibility to treat others likewise. etc.


I've checked it, and it works in all cases.


For #19., I suggested this earlier, perhaps it was overlooked?

19. The right to express one¹s thoughts on any topic, etc.

Should it be 'to express your thoughts ...'?


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 24 May , 2005 12:58 am
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Cerin caught everything that I was going to say, and a few more.

I especially agree to the modification of #10 so that all the politically correct language does not get repeated.

Sorry about that "one's" instead of "your." I thought I had changed that on my version per your request, Cerin, but I must have done it after shipping it to Voronwe.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 24 May , 2005 2:18 am
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Great edits, Cerin. I have done all of them except one, which I want to discuss. First, a comment about one of the edits that I did do

10. To refrain from personal attacks or intentional insults that target another member's nationality, ethnicity, religion, native language, gender, age or sexual orientation, to remove any unintentional insults that target another member's nationality, ethnicity, religion, native language, gender, age or sexual orientation and to refrain from using a foreign language to conceal insults of this nature.

I would suggest:

10. To refrain from personal attacks or intentional insults that target another member's nationality, ethnicity, religion, native language, gender, age or sexual orientation, to remove unintentional insults of this nature, and to refrain from using a foreign language to conceal insults of this nature.[/quote]

If this were a legal document I would never agree to this edit, because it is not 100% clear that "unintentional insults of this nature" does not refer to personal attacks as well as insults that target the protected classes. But for our purposes, I think this is fine.
Quote:
Regarding the wording of ¶2, is there any reason not to have the same construction as in ¶1, i.e.?

¶2: Rights and responsibilities that rest on the determination of all members to keep Board77 a pleasant place for all to post but are not enforceable by procedures and penalties outlined in the Charter (can you fix your blue color here, Voronwe?)

You have the Right:

18. To be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status and the responsibility to treat others likewise. etc.


I've checked it, and it works in all cases.
I have a problem with this. To me it makes the rights and responsibilities of unequal weight. If we do this, I would want to split up the rights and responsibilities again. I think we should vote on which approach to adapt. I'll suggest a question later after my rehearsal.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 24 May , 2005 2:30 am
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Regarding ¶2, I thought that not having a construction parallel to ¶1 gave additional emphasis to the fact that these clauses are categorically different.

But my main consideration was length and redundancy.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 24 May , 2005 6:43 am
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Okay, I have made two changes to the ballot. I have also cleaned a few things up, including consistently making all the references to ¶1 and ¶2 be in red.

In ¶1, No. 10 (and in Question 5) I added the words "upon request" to the phrase "to remove any unintentional insults of this nature." Otherwise voting to include this phrase would technically make members responsible for removing things that they don't know are insults of this nature!

I have made the change to the structure of ¶2 that Cerin suggested. But I have also added an additional question 10 that asks whether committee members prefer that structure or the structure that I proposed with the rights and responsibilities separated into two subsections just as in ¶1.


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