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Renaming Admins (was "Shirriffs?")

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Please state your preference among the following choices:
I prefer that our Administrators continue to be referred to as "Administrators (sometimes shortened to "Admins.")
  
15% [ 2 ]
I prefer that our Administrators be referred to as "Rangers."
  
69% [ 9 ]
I prefer that our Administrators be referred to as "Shirriffs."
  
8% [ 1 ]
I prefer that our Administrators be referred to as "Gaffers" and "Gammers."
  
8% [ 1 ]
I prefer that our Administrators be referred to as "Seneschals."
  
0% [ 0 ]
Total votes: 13
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Eruname
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 12:41 am
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Don't forget Walker, Texas Ranger Jn! :P

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 12:55 am
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-Pf!- HE is a wimp. :P :D

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 1:13 am
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I'm almost afraid to admit it, but I like Rangers better then Shirriffs.


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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 1:43 am
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Jnyusa,

When woodmen are mentioned, they are the Woodmen of Mirkwood. There is group of rangers "of the woods" led by Turambor. Aragorn's rangers are of the "empty North". They are horsemen, which is not a skill associated with woodmen, but with people of the steppes or plains in the case of the US.

It seems more congruent with scouts used by the US Army in the Indian Wars, who possibly originated as the rangers used as scouts in the Mexican War. By the post civil war era the Indians had moved west, out of the woodland areas and into the Great Plains. This period and this geography seem most in keeping with what we know of Aragorn and his rangers. However, we speak of the post civil war group as scouts, rather than rangers. The scouts were considered to be knowledgable in the lore of the Indians, familiar with the geography, and able to survive alone in the wilderness.

We can agree it was the use of the word "ranger" that went in and out of fashion and that even though the arena and related skills shifted from the woods to the plains, scouts and rangers are roughly equivalent.

Edit:

Bad memory. From Book of Lost Tales (HoME Vol 1):
Quote:
Turambar becomes lord of rangers of the woods and a harrier of the Orcs.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 2:02 am
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I was getting at something a bit different. 'Rangers' is what they were called in Bree where their true heritage was obviously unknown. Butterbur says, "No accounting for East and West ... meaning the rangers and the Shirefolk ..." He associated Strider with the empty lands to the West, not the North; and he speaks of Strider going about on long shanks rather than on horseback. Of Gondor, to which Arnor by comparison is 'north', Butterbur knew nothing.

I think Tolkien might have preferred 'ranger' because 'to range' has come to mean 'to travel wide.' I believe the association with open land (prairie) is unique to America. The word originally meant 'to set in a row' which is almost the opposite of what it means today except in its cognates.

Also 'ranger' carries no connotation of a particular mission, which 'scout' carries, in my mind at least. To the people of Bree the Rangers were "wanderers" and did not report their findings to any known command.

It may be the wrong word for the truth of Aragorn, but it was the right word for the Bree fiction.

Jn

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 3:17 am
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Jnyusa,

You are correct about the Bree perspective. This is what is known in Bree from LOTR:
Quote:
But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them.
Gandalf adds a little knowledge later about the Dunedain and the North.

The OED has the generic wanderer definition first and the scout association as third. I believe that it may be that rangers, who were those who wandered the land for their own purposes, developed knowledge and skills useful to the military, and were hired as scouts by the military. They were sometimes called rangers and sometimes called scouts. So the civilian aspect seems to be congruent with Tolkien. It is difficult to deny a military connection, though, since Aragorn the Ranger, is in fact King.

I did check with a friend who lives in General Butler's house (1825). The period of the Mexican Wars is connected with Butler's family. She says in the period from 1812 to the 1850s, several groups of rangers existed, including the Texas group, which alone lasted beyond the Mexican War. They were civilians who the military hired because of their special knowledge of an area.

I'm sure this is far more than anyone but me wanted to know.

In case I forgot to say, Ranger is fine with me.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 3:25 am
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I'm sure this is far more than anyone but me wanted to know.

Not at all! Since I hardly get over to the Hall of Fire, it's very enjoyable when an ember floats in this direction!

Jn

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 4:10 am
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This is what has eluded me all day.

From the Peoples of Middle Earth:
Quote:
The remnants of the Dunedain of the North become rangers and errants, living largely in hiding, but waging ceaseless war on all evil things that still are abroad in the land. The sons of their chieftains are usually fostered in Imladris by Elrond, to whose keeping are given the chief remaining heirlooms of their house, especially the shards of Elendil's sword, Narsil.

It is the "waging ceaseless war" phrase that caused me to connect Tolkien's "ranger" with its military meaning.

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Alatar
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 8:15 am
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I'm good with rangers!

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 8:57 am
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I definitely :love: Rangers!

And I second Jny: thanks for the embers IS

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truehobbit
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 2:36 pm
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I'm ok with Rangers, too.

Tolkien's Rangers have superseded the Texas Rangers in my mind! :D

Re, the previous discussion on gaffer and gammer: gaffer is a corruption of grandfather or godfather and gammer of grandmother or godmother, meaning just old people (probably the same way of thinking as in Russian, where you call old people grandmother/grandfather even if you don't even know them) - I don't mind them as names for our admins, but I'd insist on being a gammer! :P

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 2:57 pm
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Since Shirriffs was my original suggestion and I like Rangers better then Shirriffs I am going to eliminate Shirriffs as an option, unless anyone has a serious objection to that. In fact, I would like to make this a straight vote between maintaining the name admin or referring to admins as Rangers. Does anyone have any serious desire to include any of the other suggested names or some other name in the vote?


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 2:58 pm
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IS: It is the "waging ceaseless war" phrase that caused me to connect Tolkien's "ranger" with its military meaning.

Yeah - and when I picture the sons of Elrond and the Dunedain, I do picture them galloping about on horses!

One very nice thing that J.R.R. achieved was how one's image of Middle Earth changed as one moved through the book.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 3:06 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
One very nice thing that J.R.R. achieved was how one's image of Middle Earth changed as one moved through the book.
Sounds like a good topic of discussion for the Hall of Fire. :)


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truehobbit
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 3:43 pm
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I think a poll with several options would be better - if someone likes something else but Ranger, we'll have another thread up next week. ;)

Come to think of it, in a non-Tolkien context "Ranger" is a bit silly for an admin name, though. I mean it's silly in any case, but in a Tolkien context, it's nicely silly. But, well, I suppose as long as we have a special Tolkien forum, even a visitor who is not a Tolkien fan would notice the board has a connection to Tolkien.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 3:52 pm
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Hobby, what other options would you like to see included in the poll?


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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 8:20 pm
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I think admin and ranger as choices are enough, but if someone insists, just add another. I think we are ready to vote.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 8:53 pm
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Voronwe, from reading the thread I couldn't say who likes what - much of the response was in joking (so it seemed) and many people who might vote didn't even post.
So I was thinking it best to just include all the options suggested, from Shirriff to Seneschal, maybe even Gaffer - if they get no votes, no problem, at least we'll know then we won't have to vote on any of them next week.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 30 May , 2005 11:24 pm
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Hobby, if you give me a list of names you would like to see included in the poll, I will include them. :)


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 31 May , 2005 12:23 am
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Voronwe,

Only a couple of them received more than a passing suggestion:

administrator, gaffer, ranger, seneschal, shirriff

We could run a 24 hour IRV here and put 'administrator' plus the other top one or two choices to a member ratification vote.

Jn

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