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VOTE OVER: Loremaster Revisited

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: VOTE OVER: Loremaster Revisited
Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:00 am
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BALLOT
Interim Vote on Procedural Oversight
[Note: this is not actual Charter Text - we are voting -- again --on the idea]


This is now a two question ballot. If a majority of voters vote for Choice B of Question 1, then no provision will be added to the Charter regarding this function, regardless of the results Question 2.

THIS VOTE WILL REMAIN OPEN UNTIL 12:01 A.M. GMT ON SUNDAY JUNE 5.

Question 1: I recognize the need for procedural oversight of hearings, to ensure that proper procedure is followed and to provide a resource for hearing participants, so that the participants can concentrate on the substantive issues of the hearing.

PLEASE SELECT ONE:
A. I agree with this statement.
B. I do not agree with this statement.

Question 2: Please state your preference for who should be responsible for performing this function.

PLEASE RANK YOUR CHOICES with #1 being most preferred:

A. The Mayor will perform this function.

B. A new office will be created to perform this function. This office will be called "Loremaster" and will have the same duration, eligibility, and selection provisions as the office of the Mayor but with a different area of responsibility.

C. No new office will be created, nor will the Mayor perform this function. When hearing arises, the Mayor will designated someone to act in the Loremaster role for that hearing only.

D. No new office will be created, nor will the Mayor perform this function. The Mayor will keep a list of volunteers who are willing to sufficiently familarize themselves with the Charter and fill this role when necessary. When a hearing arises, the Jury may choose to ask one of these volunteer Loremasters to oversee the hearing.

E. A new office will be created to perform this function. This office will be called "Loremaster," with a term of office the same length as that of the Mayor. The Mayor will appoint the Loremaster, choosing from a pool of volunteers.

#1=
#2=
#3=
#4=
#5=

Last edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Fri 03 Jun , 2005 6:17 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:03 am
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We vote now? Is that the idea? Or is this for discussion?

(I hope not for discussion again! We keep reinventing the wheel.)

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:07 am
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Impy, I agree that there should not be alot more that needs to be said about this, but I want to at least give the committee a chance to see the ballot before starting the vote. :) :D


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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:12 am
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Thank you Voronwe. It looks fine as is. I'm as impatient as Impenitent.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:21 am
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Voronwe - thanks for re-opening this. And I see that you've put up a ballot for the Mayor, too, which leads to one question in my mind ... I guess because it would influence my vote to some extent.

One of the things we had talked about was that the Loremaster might serve as back-up for routine functions of the Mayor. Would this obviate the need for a deputy mayor? - or are people thinking that the Loremaster office should be completely separate and have nothing to do with the Mayor? If the latter, and we happen to want back-up for the Mayor, that means we would be creating three elected offices, right?

Jn

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Cerin
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:32 am
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I don't care for the idea of Loremaster backing up the Mayor. I guess that would mean three elected offices, if a Deputy Mayor is approved and isn't the runner-up.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:36 am
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Even if he is the runner-up, that's still three elected officials.

I'm trying to decide how many I want. :)

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Cerin
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:39 am
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Quote:
Even if he is the runner-up, that's still three elected officials.
:oops: :D


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 7:52 am
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I really like the dovetailing of the two jobs, having the Loremaster become the Mayor after six months.

Consider that this will build a pool of people who know a tremendous amount about how this board works. Every Mayor will have served six months as Loremaster (or could if we structure it that way).

Having one office feed into the other, just as a side note, will keep one person from holding a single office for more than six months. No mayoral dynasties. It will spread the wealth of knowledge, and also spread whatever power ends up in these offices.

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Cerin
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 8:08 am
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
I really like the dovetailing of the two jobs, having the Loremaster become the Mayor after six months.
ACK!

These are not similar positions. Maybe the Loremaster doesn't want to be Mayor. Maybe someone interested in overseeing hearing procedure has no interest in keeping track of admins, presiding over festivities and keeping cognizant of outside interactions. Maybe someone comfortable with the idea of keeping track of admins and jovially presiding over fesitivites is terrified or bored by the idea of overseeing hearing procedure.

Prim, I love you dearly, but I really, really hate this idea. :help:


Edited for being terribly loud and rude. I beg your pardon, Prim.

Last edited by Cerin on Wed 01 Jun , 2005 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 8:12 am
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But that shrinks the available pool! Some people would be happy to be Loremaster, to be occasionally called upon to oversee a hearing, but would be completely uninterested in day to day record keeping and ribbon cutting; and vice versa.

Jn, I don't see it as three roles - I see it as two: Loremaster and Thain (er...did I say Thain? :oops: I'm showing my colours). The deputy is the same role - just as admins are one role, but we have 5 of them.

And neither do I like the idea of the Deputy rolling over to become the Thain - but that's for the other thread.

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Cerin
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 8:18 am
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Imp - Pssst. I find I'm thrilled with Thain as well.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 8:26 am
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Imp - Jn, I don't see it as three roles

No, it's not three roles. But it is three people. I'm just trying to decide whether I think we need that many people in elected positions. And also how the membership will receive the idea.

Jn

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Holbytla
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 8:50 am
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Less is more.
No more beuracracy.
Power to the people.

If this position is an absolute must, I insist it be called the Thighmaster.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 10:05 am
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Holbytla wrote:
If this position is an absolute must, I insist it be called the Thighmaster.
Swoons for the Thighmaster! :love:

(wish I could master my own thighs so I could whup 'em into shape)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 11:56 am
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Voronwe, I want to raise a procedural question about this thread. I know that I was happy so see it go up, because I felt that the function of hearing oversight was very important, but I am having second thoughts from a 'rules of order' perspective.

You referenced in your first post my desire to hold a re-vote on this issue, but reholding one of the votes was actually what I said should not be done. I made that statement in response to your suggestion that we vote once again whether the Mayor should do this job, answering that if we revote on the function we have to include the option of both offices. I believe that is what Cerin was agreeing with, but she will have to speak for herself.

The trouble I am having with re-doing the one ballot alone - the separate office of Loremaster ballot - is the fact that you were the only one who voted against it because you thought the Mayor should do it. Everyone else voted against it because they didn't want another elected office, period.

And there was a great deal of confusion as to why this office was being proposed at all, mainly among the Europeans for whom this kind of oversight procedure is not part of their political background. So I don't think it is true that there is not a lot to talk about. We should at the very least allow for questions and clarification from the people who expressed confusion before.

Finally ... last time we voted 'no' 9 to 7. Laureanna voted no and she is gone. You voted no for an idiosyncractic reason and would like now to change your vote. I have a weak feeling about the discussion leader re-doing a vote so that he can change his vote, and also by extension change the outcome because an opposing member of the committee has been lost.

I would like to suggest that we allow those who voted against this to express agreement/disagreement with the idea of voting on this issue a second time.

Perhaps in the interim a number of people have changed their mind about this issue, and it really is appropriate to hold the vote over, as we did with the admin election issue. But we did not do that without arriving through discussion at a mutual agreement that it should be done, and I think we should follow the same procedure here.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 12:46 pm
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Jn, I certainly agree that it is appropriate to discuss both the propriety of doing the revote and of how. I was under the impression that I was not the only one who had voted against this idea in the first place because I wanted the mayor to do this task, but I don't have documentary evidence of this fact (nor the desire to go back and track down other people's comments to see if I am right). As I said in my email, I don't have a particular time line for starting this vote (or the vote on the Mayor office) because I just don't know exactly how much discussion will be needed. But I'm open to any idea that you or anyone suggests for making this as fair as possible. :)


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 1:00 pm
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Well, I think I would like to hear first of all that at least one other person has changed their mind. :) If everyone except you votes exactly as they did before, and the result changes only because laureanna is gone, it will not feel quite kosher to me.

And I think that Nin and TH, who did bother to voice questions in the other thread, should be given a chance to reformulate their questions under less pressure. This was an 'off the agenda' vote the last time too, and a bit rushed.

Jn

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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 2:01 pm
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I like the idea of a seperate Loremaster who is neither the Mayor nor the Deputy Mayor. Is it possible that the Loremaster could be selected from among the admins? Surely at any time at least one of the admins would need to know the procedures?

Sorry if I'm muddying the waters here.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 01 Jun , 2005 2:03 pm
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Muddying the waters is what we do best. :)


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