board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

VOTE OVER: Member-owned Board

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Please state your preference among the following choices:
I approve the full text in the first post
  
100% [ 13 ]
I only approve the first sentence of the text, which reads It is the intention of board77 to eventually become a member-owned messageboard/internet/online community.
  
0% [ 0 ]
I do not approve of either the full text or the first sentence only.
  
0% [ 0 ]
Total votes: 13
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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 3:15 pm
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:Wooper:

Last edited by Primula_Baggins on Sun 05 Jun , 2005 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 3:22 pm
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I think it all looks very good! :)

I would hope that even if there is no great echo at the quarterly sessions (that is, if not many people read or take part), that nevertheless a simple report to and from the Mayor, i.e. an official, formal communication between the Mayor and the members, would suffice to fulfill the demands of the law?
Quote:
By the time the third or fourth "generation" of memebers is here, the Charter will look as if it had been graven in stone by the finger of JHVH, and will be ready to enshrine in the public space of your choice
:LMAO: :LMAO: :LMAO:
(And this idea makes my first sentence in this post look suddenly odd! :Q ;) )

But I'm afraid I don't have your optimism, Ax, so I'd really like some feedback on my previous question, which Imp also asked about.
At the moment there are maybe five people, I'd say, who understand what all this means and entails. Even with hoping that in time some more will come to understand the processes, and that maybe one day there'll be a dozen or so people who know how this place is financed for example - this still sounds quite precarious to me.

Is there a possibility, for example, that one day none of those are around any more, and the Mayor gets a note announcing a tax investigation - and now one knows what the heck this is all about?

Or that the membership changes so that the procedures are simply forgotten? Suppose those members who are left have a good time posting, but they don't bother anymore about electing a Mayor and forget about those quarterly meetings etc - then suddenly California law writes to them and asks what's going on - are they in trouble?
Do we have to do something to make sure we don't get any subsequent generations in trouble, even if it is by their own negligence?

Edit: then suddenly California law writes to them - this reminds me: if you file an organisation like this one in real life files, don't they need someone's real life address? And if so, I suppose that would be Voronwe's law office? So, does that mean his law office is making an open-ended commitment to this board? :Q

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 3:32 pm
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Viv, the law does not specify that quarterly meetings are necessary, so I have changed it to say "will have regular Board/Member meetings ... ."

Hobby, you raise an excellent point. In the comprehensive plan that I will present to the membership before this would implemented, I will include the ongoing responsibilities that will be necessary for future members to do to avoid the kind of problems that you raise.


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Holbytla
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 3:38 pm
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All of this is fine with me as long as I am only liable for me.
I do not want to be liable for the board in general, nor do I wish to be in any kind of position that is in any way remotely connected with liability.
I want no part of ownership. I only want to be a visitor.

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Cerin
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 3:49 pm
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Holby wrote:
I want no part of ownership. I only want to be a visitor.
Hmmm. It sounds to me as though that wouldn't be an option, Holby. Unless we can arrange a way for members to opt out of voting. It may well be that I've misunderstood, but I thought it was arranged so that everyone who votes has part in ownership. Member-run, member-owned. Meaning if you help run, you own. So if you don't want to own, you can't help run.

Voronwe, if this is wrong, please delete it so I don't add confusion to the discussion.


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Axordil
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 3:54 pm
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In most not-for-profit corps the board of directors "is" the organization, legally. The "membership" is functionally invisible, irrelevant, and immune to getting nasty letters from anyone.

TH--

My optimism is based on having done it. I built a fairly elaborate structure within a not-for-profit in the early 80s. After a few minor tweaks, it has run effectively and without my intervention, or even communication, since. And that was _one_ mind at work, not a collection of minds that can edit and collaborate and cross-pollinate.

That said, the charter requires that the people on the board want the board to exist. If that ceases to be true, no structure, no precaution, no contingincy plan can save it. Yet it is certainly a good idea to make the fiduciary administration of the board as well-documented as possible, so that future people don't have the opportunity to forget. :)

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 4:13 pm
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Thanks Voronwe and Ax - sounds all very reassuring! :)

As to Holby's question, I agree with Cerin: "member-owned" board to me means, if you are a member, you share the ownership.

The only alternative would be to have some kind of "visitor" status, but that's the problem Jny raised, too, I think - the question of whether everybody who is registered has equal voting and member rights, or if not, how to determine these.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 5:08 pm
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Hobby, you raised a good point earlier which has to do with the physical existence of a corporation. There has to be a real world couterpart to our presence here, an address of record, a keeper of the corporate seal, etc.

These are things we will have to resolve, which is why the "intention" part of this section is so important. This may not be a viable option for a virtual community in the end, but our intention right now is to relieve individuals of liability. Our intention is to investigate the ways we might do that.

Holby - you really made me laugh, because you echoed something that has been lurking in the back of my mind ever since the whole notion of membership organization came up. You see, everyone here is saying 'NO CLASS SYSTEM' without realizing that this is also oppressive because it forces every member to become an owner, and in real life you cannot of course force any person to join an organization.

There will have to be differentiators whether our communists like this idea or not because in the end everyone at one point or another wants to opt for None of the Above.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 5:15 pm
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Holbytla wrote:
All of this is fine with me as long as I am only liable for me.
I do not want to be liable for the board in general, nor do I wish to be in any kind of position that is in any way remotely connected with liability.
I want no part of ownership. I only want to be a visitor.
We could in theory having people register for the site who are not voting members. But they would not be eligible to vote in any elections. They would probably have to not have posting privileges in whatever forums elections were held.

But Holby I don't understand what gives you the impression that being a member would make you liable for the board in general or even remotely connect you with liability?


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 5:29 pm
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Quote:
Hobby, you raised a good point earlier which has to do with the physical existence of a corporation. There has to be a real world couterpart to our presence here, an address of record, a keeper of the corporate seal, etc.
What there actually needs to be is what is called an "agent for service of process" with a specific address listed. This person would most commonly be either the attorney who files the incorporating papers or the CEO. I would be willing to take on this role, so that in the unlikely event that the corporation were ever sued the documents would automatically go to me.

But this is of course part of the details that would need to be worked out in the future. Hopefully, Ax and others that have had some experience with this type of thing in the past will be willing to work with me when the time comes to move forward.

I'm going to go ahead and put up a poll with three options:

1) Approving the text as it stands;
2) Approving only the sentence "It is the intention of board77 to eventually become a member-owned messageboard/internet/online community."
3) Approving neither.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 5:49 pm
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Vote will remain open for approximately 32 hours to parallel Jn's Goals vote.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 5:56 pm
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Voted.

And while I'm standing here, much as I hate to own up to this, if statues of Voronwe and myself are erected in the town square, they ought to be made out of brass. ;)

Jn

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Cerin
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 6:05 pm
Thanks to Holby
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voted

Why brass?


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Holbytla
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 6:20 pm
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Voronwë I admit to being ignorant regarding these matters.
However I am not so naive to think that at some point someone will have to be liable if a problem occurs. No matter how this is set up some one person or people will have to be in a position of liability.
If I am going to be in the position of even possibly being questioned about something that occured here I would want total control, and that is not going to happen.
I hope I am being clear.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 6:30 pm
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Quote:
However I am not so naive to think that at some point someone will have to be liable if a problem occurs. No matter how this is set up some one person or people will have to be in a position of liability.
Holby, the whole purpose of forming a corporation, any corporation, is to avoid having one person or a group of people being in a position of liability. The law recognizes the corporate entity itself as a "person" for purposes of who is liable. Only in rare circumstances where is it possible to pierce that corporate veil and hold directors or officers liable. Under no circumstances would you be liable just for being a voting member. That is like saying that you could be sued for Microsoft's actions simply for owning stock in Microsoft. Can't happen.


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truehobbit
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 7:03 pm
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Voted :)

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 8:10 pm
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Voted.

Last edited by Primula_Baggins on Sun 05 Jun , 2005 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 8:14 pm
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"Go after the money."
If the corp has nothing you can bet in this litigious society that they will go after individuals if at all possible.
And if not civilly then criminally.
But again I remain ignorant despite your best efforts. No fault of yours.

The subtlety around here isn't so subtle anymore.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 8:43 pm
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And I do not appreciate editing after the fact.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sun 05 Jun , 2005 8:46 pm
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I reserve the right to edit when I realize that I have made a bad joke whose implications are not at all what I intended. I was being silly. You pointed out that it could be taken another way. I edited.

Sorry.

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