board77

To answer your question *E*

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I believe Alandriel copied all those threads on to disc. I don't even remember what was on them, but I should ask if she still has them around to mail.

Yes I still have them of course and at the time it was decided by those involved that they should be made available to those involved (before invites started) and at the same time we made a summary of events now floating at the bottom of the business forum, accessible to all but locked. This still holds unless it's upturned by those that made that decision back then.

and I second what Impenitent posted

_______________
Resident witchâ„¢

Well, I definitely don't want to be right, just careful. It's going to differ from situation to situation, and some of us will hit the nail on the head in one, but not others. Even if more negativity came out of this than positivity, I know that the smallest of positives will be enough to convince some people that it was all worth it, and I understand that. I guess it just takes more to please me, and I would opt for the smaller perceived risk.

Thank you, Impy. I mean, my posts sound more like someone who's been sleepin' for 14 hours in 30 degree heat, but thanks all the same. I just have a bad feeling about it, and knew I had to write something while I could. Ever since Wilma and I were talking about this thread, I was surprised that almost all of you thought it was a good idea to keep everything viewable. In fact, I stayed on the phone until a few minutes before I had to pack and catch my flight.

It all comes down to how each person reads the situation. That's how it always is. I just tend to find problems more easily then positives.

EDITED: saw your post, Alandriel!




*E*

Ah *E* it's not you finding problems it's many people finding probems. Me I am a prepare for the worst and hope for the best type of person. I just do not see anything good coming out of this. Like *E* I write what I write with the audience in mind. If I had known what I was typing then was going to be viewable by the public I never would have said anything. I personally feel I have something to lose. Maybe it is about letting other people have control, the thing is on their turf they do have control and they won't hesitate to use it. Like I said in the begining, I do not want to get banned from there!!! I would like to know those that are for leaving them visible, do they still post at the other place?

Also, I kind of feel mislead, I had a sense of security since things had been deleted before. I do not understand why all those threads go yet the ones where I posted incriminating/offensive things in gets to stay.


To be honest I do not want to be around for the the opening celebration since I feel there will not too much celebrating going on. I have been burned too many times to have to learn the hard way again. I am one of little faith. I am not very trusting. I do not want people who I do not trust reading my posts there. 'Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me'. I ain't looking to be fooled twice.

I echo all of *E*'s sentiments since she can say them better then I can, since for some reaon people think I am paranoid. Everyone here is aware the search function works right? People will not have to do much to find all the 'dirt' they are looking for. For some reason I feel there will be another entry on the Fandom Wank board.

I keep trying to stay away from this thread since all I keep getting is bad memories. Too much life experience has taught me that this way will only lead to more trouble.

Wilma wrote:

I had a sense of security since things had been deleted before. I do not understand why all those threads go yet the ones where I posted incriminating/offensive things in gets to stay.

I will say this - the invite threads were deleted right away, for obvious reasons, which I agreed with. It's a similar thing with the TORC threads, but they're staying around. In invites, we spoke freely, and perhaps even more honestly because we knew the threads would be deleted before anybody saw them (even though common sense tells us there's always the chance the posts get saved and spread around anyway). To me, the TORC threads are just a larger-scaled version of that. Does it mean you should have just said kind things about everybody in Invites, thinking that they will one day read it? No. But as I've said before, there are different ways to speak your mind, and knowing your audience has a lot to do with how it eventually comes out.

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To be honest I do not want to be around for the the opening celebration since I feel there will not too much celebrating going on.

In my worst moments, I picture the floods of Isen swamping over Orthanc, but I doubt it'll be quite like that. Not unless there's been much advertising over instant messenger and e-mail, and some people are waiting right outside the door waiting to get in. It's not likely to be an immediate reaction, but like an amusement park, where the crowds steadily build up.

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I echo all of *E*'s sentiments since she can say them better then I can, since for some reason people think I am paranoid.

I'm hardly the picture of a healthy mentality. As they say: it's not paranoia if they really are following you. I don't want to be right, I just want to be careful, so that's what I'm trying to do now that things are gonna change a bit.




*E*

*E* I do hope you get a chance to read what has been said in this thread previously. I feel a bit like we are stuck in a time warp, like in Groundhog Day. Many people started out in this discussion feeling the same way that you do; most of us changed our minds in the course of the discussion. Most of the points that were made that led to that result are not going not be repeated just because you bring up the other side again, but it doesn't make them any less valid.

I'm not trying to sound rude here, but it seems that people keep telling me about what's already gone on in this thread as if my points are silly until I come around to your way of thinking. I've only missed out on the B77 stuff that's occured from April onwards. The other posts in this thread, I will get around to, I just wanted to first go through the ones in Hobby's post so that I can look for what I've said, and catch up on what I missed.

Granted, I keep posting here after having read threads other than this one, but still. No doubt I will understand why you've all come to your decision (I already understand it, I just don't feel as safe about it as you do), but I must share my opinion on it irregardless. Unfortunately, I arrived late, but that was out of my hands.

I can't tell if you were saying my opinions weren't less valid (which I'm aware of but not quite being made to feel it's the truth), or that I thought other people's opinions were less valid (which is not true). I haven't been asking anybody to repeat themselves, I'm just saying what I think. If I'm supposed to hush up because it's not a popular opinion, then I'm sorry for not playing along.




*E*

It's just—people want to respond to you, *E*, but much of what we would say we have already said, right here in this thread. You are coming in at the end of what was for a lot of us a long process, during which our opinions changed, and saying, "Well, here's what I think."

No one devalues your opinion, or expects it to change if you read the thread. But it seems reasonable to ask you to read it, given that you're posting in it. I think that may be the source of some of the frustration you may sense here.

I realize that, and perhaps it would have been best if I hadn't said anything about that at all, but the fact is that the poll is set to end on Saturday night, so we should still feel completely welcome to share our opinions, even if we're not on the overwhelmingly popular side of the argument. Only 43 people have voted, after all. No, I'm definitely not expecting anyone else to jump in there and tip the scales, but I'm not comfortable with the decision that's been reached, so I'm just trying to save my own butt, selfish as it sounds.




*E*

Of course you have a right to express your opinion. But until you read what others have said, you are dismissing theirs. How would you feel if I posted immediately after you and said, "Well, I can't be bothered to read all that, but I still disagree"?

It's what I fear some people will do when visiting B77.




*E*

And when they do, we will pimp slap them accordingly.

Well I have the odd feeling since I was not convinced otherwise everything I said does not matter? I am sorry but most of everyone reassurances has not done much to convince me.

Of course your feelings matter, Wilma. The vote's not going your way, but that's not a dismissal of how you feel; it's the board deciding to do something else.

We can respect everyone's feelings, and I hope we do. The problem is that we can't do what everyone wants. We have to pick a direction and go that way.

Actully the vote is not what is bothering me (too much). It just seems the implication is everyone has else has seen reason except for me. I will say I stayed out of some the discussion since it is just too taxing for me and only leaves me with bad feelings. Once I edit my posts what has been done cannot be undone. I persoanlly think it's drastic and I loathe editing but when I think about what I might lose well....

Just because I have not been active in some parts of this thread does not mean I somehow agree with everyone.

THe thing I can't get over is if I was told in the begining that those threads would someday be public I think many of them would have taken a different shape.

Well, this vote is definitely going in one direction.

Wilma and *E*, I don't expect you to change your minds about not liking the result, but if you are convinced that there is going to be a bad outcome, then you need to put your energy now into deciding how you will conduct yourself if the bad result you anticipate does materialize.

Free-floating anxiety is not A PLAN, and you will feel better, believe me, if you formulate in your own minds a plan for your own responses.

Decide in your heart how you feel about these things, and how you will deal with people who might question what you've said ... know what you are going to do if certain things happen.

Whatever comes ..., you know, try to build some confidence that you will know how to deal with it.

Jn

Wilma wrote:

THe thing I can't get over is if I was told in the begining that those threads would someday be public I think many of them would have taken a different shape.

That is a hard thing, Wilma. But I think that is what gives you every right to edit your posts, down to nothing, if you want, without feeling guilty about it. There is no reason you have to make public, comments you intended as private, if you don't want to.

Yes, Cerin is correct.

No one has talked about restricting anyone's right to edit their own posts before they are locked. The issue is whether or not posters who are nervous about their own statements, or those of others, should be able to censor the entire set.

This is what Holby had to say:

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I have a few posts or so in some of the "controversial" threads. I stand by those posts be they good or bad. It is what I said at the time.
I totally object to anyone deleting or editing my posts. That amounts to censorship as far as I am concerned, and I will have none of it.
If you (the collective you) do not want to stand by what you said then edit your own posts. Don't tell me what to do with mine.
I didn't stand out front going toe to toe with TPTB at TORC to come here and get my posts deleted. No way. I said nothing here that I wouldn't have said over there if I were allowed to.

I don't believe in censorship either.

Wilma wrote:

It just seems the implication is everyone has else has seen reason except for me.

That's not at all the point that I was trying to make at all. The point that I was making was that *E* was repeating things that others (including you, Wilma) had said earlier in the thread, and it can be wearing to have to try to respond to the same type of things repeatedly. I don't expect that either you or *E* will change your minds. The fact that most people disagree with you does not make you wrong. But the fact that many people have changed their minds in the course of the discussion is a testimony to the power of the arguments that people have made. I will leave it at that.

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THe thing I can't get over is if I was told in the begining that those threads would someday be public I think many of them would have taken a different shape.

I don't think any of us were thinking in terms of whether those threads would some day be "public"; we were all in a state of shock to a large extent. But I will say this: from the beginning of my time at board77 the general sense that I got was that the plan was to eventually open the board to the public.

Certainly "TPTB" (if that term can even have any meaning at b77) never stated anything to the effect of "you can say anything you want in these threads because even if we open they will be deleted or hidden. Moreover, a number of people (including myself) specifically stated the opinion that whether people were talking about members of board77 or non-members the same standards of courtesy and respect should apply, as well as pointing out that to the best of our knowledge some of the comments were already being read by the non-members who were the subjects of some of the comments.

I do recall believing that some of the comments that were being made were ill-advised, but to the best of my memory none of the comments that I thought that about were made by either you, Wilma, or by *E*.

*E* and Wilma - just wanted to say that I totally understand where you are coming from. I ended up voting with the majority, but just by a hair. I think there are excellent reasons to bury those threads. There will be unpleasantness about them when the board opens, and we've all had more than enough of that.

For me the deciding factor is that people know the threads, or at least the discussions, exist. They will be looking for them. What they imagine may actually be worse than what is there. I finally decided it would be better to have difficult discussions based on what actually happened rather than what people imagine happened. Because those discussions are going to occur either way.

But there's no reason to apologize for what you think.

What Ethel said!

(Even though I haven't voted yet, and I don't know if I will - I just can't make a choice of which I'm really convinced.)

E* and Wilma, it's tough to write up against counter-arguments coming from all sides, and I know it feels like everybody is just refusing to see things your way, but in fact it's just that the majority has a different opinion. That doesn't mean that your opinion shouldn't be heard! But in a majority decision that also means your opinion can't be acted upon. I think everybody here did a great job in arguing for their personal point of view! LOL, my own views have been swaying with each well-argued post from either side.

(And you can of course still get more people to vote - let them know to come here and vote! Fifty or so votes is a good result, but we'd all be happy if a majority of our 150 or so active members voted!)

As I've said a few times in this thread, I think you are right to expect people to read only negative things where most people here read good and reasonable things. And that one word that the reader considers annoying ruins a whole post of reasonable argument.

Heck, it's happening to me all the time - I step on someone's toes with one word, and all the rest of my post that took an hour to write goes down the drain.
And I've spent hours typing stuff in the most careful, diplomatic, considerate way I could (although many will probably think that's not saying much ) trying to explain why I felt the way I felt back in December, firmly believing that "the other side" at one point would understand - and it's never happened! So of course I don't think reading these threads will make anyone see things our way who hasn't done so before.

BUT - I hope that people who read these threads will understand that the whole stuff dates from months ago and that it's possible to move on!
And maybe even more, namely that once the problems can be faced and there's no guessing and suspecting and rumours, we can eventually really leave that stuff behind.
I dunno - I guess I hope that when the skeleton is out of the closet, after the first shock you can at last bury it.