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Constitutional Convention Member Discussion Thread

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: Constitutional Convention Member Discussion Thread
Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 6:12 pm
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EDIT: IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN BEING A PART OF A PANEL DESIGNED TO PUT TOGETHER A DRAFT "CONSTITUTION" (TO BE VOTED ON BY THE FULL MEMBERSHIP), PLEASE READ THIS THREAD AND INDICATE YOUR INTEREST BY MARCH 11.

added by Alandriel: So far we have as volunteers (in no particular order those that have said flat out they volunteer I underline): 01-Voronwe, 02-Leoba, 03-Nin, 04-Lidless, 05-Jny (suggested as discussion leader), 06-Ethel, 07-truhobbit, 08-Farawen (will keep current but can only start posting ex 15th), 09-Dindraug, 10-Holbytla, 11-Alandriel; 12-Silwen, 13-Primula_Baggins, 14-Lord_Morningstar, 15. Axordil, 16. Alassante Estel, 17. AlatarVinyamar, 18. Ellienor, 19. Faramond

See also Constitutional Convention
Either Voronwe or Alandriel will keep this updated :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am doing this as a new thread because I think it is urgent enough that he needs to be addressed right away, and not lost in the midst of the myriad different discussion, and polls that are already going on. I have read the Announcement thread. ;)

It is my perception that board77 is in danger of spinning off into anarchy. I love the basic democratic nature of the place, and I would not fundamentally change that, but we suffer from a lack of a process to allow us to make effective decisions for moving forward into the future. With everybody and everyone allowed to start a poll about anything, each vote becomes more and more meaningless. That will become even more true as we grow, but once we have a strong structure in place, it should not be nearly as much of an issue, and the democratic process will work as intended.

But I believe that emergency measures are immediately necessary to get to that point. This is what I propose:

1. An immediate moratorium on new invite threads until the structure is in place (allowing the existing threads to be processed).

2. A panel is formed consisting of all current and former admins, Jnyusa, lidless,and Ethel (and perhaps a very few number of others). This panel will as quickly as possible devise a series of polls, each with a clear purpose and a clear time limit for voting and implimentation, guided by the various discussion that have already taken place (and which will inevitably continue to take place while the panel deliberates.

Please note that I am not proposing that a poll be set up on this idea. How ironic would that be. I am proposing that the current admins make an executive decision to implement this plan or some similar plan. I urge you to do so before it is too late. I have already come to care about this place even more then I did that other place that has nothing to do with us even though we all come from there (;)). I would be very sad if board77 collapsed under the weight of his own values.

Thanks for listening.[/list][/list]

Last edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Mon 06 Jun , 2005 10:43 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 6:17 pm
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Thank you, Voronwe. The process was much more orderly a month ago, but you are right that it is now spinning into chaos.

Admins? Are you up for a conference?

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 6:20 pm
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Not through anyone's fault, jn. I don't think that anyone could have anticipated what has happened in the last week, which has greatly increased the urgency of getting the process completed.


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Leoba
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 6:29 pm
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Thank you Voronwe.

And yes.

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Nin
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 7:34 pm
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Yes from me too.

I think three "normal" posters should be included - someone from the first hour, someone who arrived early and one relative n00bie to have everybody represented.

Can the invite forum be technically blocked for new threads?

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 7:47 pm
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Good points Voronwe.

I can't do a conference because I have to go teach and after that go to my other job until around midnight my time.

I'm not sure if we could keep new threads from being started up. That's something I or another admin would have to check on.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 7:57 pm
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Yes - thank you very much indeed! I have been trying to get some order into the 'chaos' as you are aware but I much rather help do that in a more orderly fashion, discussing and coordinating matters with ALL the Admin and whoever agrees to help.
To hear that also Jnyusa, Lidless and Ethel (and I hope you Voronwe) will actively be taking part apart from the Admins is fantastic :D

Problem is timezones and widely varying availability schedules. How do you propose to work this? IM - extremely difficult to get everybody online at the same time I think. A thread? Slower yes but definitely do-able :)

I'll gladly participate to the best of my abilities if you want me to :D Basically I'm availalbe Monday through Friday approx. 10.00 - 14.30 and again from 20.30 - 24.00. (UK times = GMT +1) Saturdays and Sundays are pretty much out for me though but I'll try my very best :)

.. and in the meantime you'll be glad to know I'm leaving my fingers well of locking/moving/ editing threads and or creating announcements and such :halo:

PS: on the question of technicalities. Well the Admin can 'disable' the Business forum to read only but I don't think that would be a great idea. As far as I know there is no way of keeping posting rights yet not allow to start up new threads. One goes hand in hand with the other. Just for your info.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 8:34 pm
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As for implementing a moratorium on new invite threads, I would just put an announcement to that effect at the top of the invite forum, in CAPITAL LETTERS, and then lock any threads that nonetheless get started.

As for how the "panel" would arrange to "meet" that's up to you panel members. ;) Now that I've provided the idea, I'll just back away slowly and leave you to it. :whistle:


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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 8:41 pm
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********** grab's Voronwe! Not that hasty :D Come on! We need your help too. No backing out after you've started this thread ;)

Anyways... the last thing I want to do is spam :Q So I hope we can come up with a way to communicate. Check your busy schedules and let's try and hash out a possible time. IM would still be best of course. Now I'm afraid I'm off - for good. Till tomorrow morning my time. Thanks for ALL your goodwill and help :hug:

but not before I say one more thing re invites: you know.. the email requests and uninvited sign-ups are actually not such a bit deal to deal with since the process on those will take a full 11 days. The problem is stopping the members from opening new threads on members that have not contacted us in any way.
But you're probably right. Well not probably. For stopping the invite process altogether of course will help us focus :D on *the* most important aspects of how this board is managed.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 9:18 pm
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I don't think making an exception for people that actively seek us out would be a problem. But its not up to me. ;)

As for my not backing away, there really is not anything left for me to say. Its up to the people that would be on this panel to figure out the details.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 9:26 pm
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Voronwe - I think Alandriel means that she wants you on the panel.

I, too, think that is a good idea, because we need to clear up some FCC related things with regard to the filtered forum. I don't think what's posted in the Welcome Announcement right now is adequate. I think we're required by law to obtain a faxed consent from the parent.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 9:37 pm
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Jn, I don't know diddly-squat about that kind of stuff. :P I think that Elli might.

As for me serving on the panel, I was afraid you were going to say that. ;) I'm not sure how much I would have to offer, and my time is sometimes limited, but it would be churlish of me to suggest the idea and then refuse to participate. However, one reason that I did not suggest myself as a panel member is to avoid any impression at all that I was somehow trying to "take over". But if asked to serve, I would do so, time allowing. I wonder whether the best way to approach this would be to have a separate forum set up with only the panel members having reading and posting privileges. I would imagine it would take at least a week to hash out what exactly the full membership needs to vote on, and agree on the exact language of the polls and the applicable timelines. Maybe more then a week.


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Ethel
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 9:57 pm
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I will be happy to serve on the panel if it is decided that is desirable.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 10:54 pm
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Ethel, you're desirable! :love:

Voronwe - I still think your common sense would be an asset, and we should ask Elli as well. I saw her post before about being an attorney, but couldn't remember who it was or in what forum I'd seen it.

Admins to date have been: Alandriel, Berhael, Din, Eru, Estel, Gimli, Griff, and Rodia. Is that right?

Nin has a good idea that we should choose at least one oldbie, one early invite and one noob who may not have been involved up to now to round out our perspective.

And Lidless, because he'll be the owner when we move.

Maybe we can just handle the discussion in this thread. Or, we could use the Jury Room for that.

I have on my hard drive a sort of diagram of what decisions had to be made, but they got sort of smeared around as discussions were moved to different threads, and quite a few of them are concluded. So let me tidy up my file and post an update here.

Jn

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Nin
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 11:39 pm
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Wow - Jnyusa called one of my ideas good... :oops:

I'm almost ashamed to admit it - but if I have the time and you think I could add something I would like to be part of the discussion. I think it would be an asset that at least one person is not a native or reagular speaker of English and can testify if all is clear and understandable for the linguistic handicaped like me.


But if you think, I don't have enough time (which might be true), or not enough ideas (which might be true too) - just say it right ahead. I only dare to express my interest because it's so late.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 11:58 pm
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Nin, I was going to suggest that you be included as the original member regular poster panel member. Not just because it was your idea, but also because I think your contribution would be valuable. :)


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truehobbit
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Posted: Sat 05 Mar , 2005 12:18 am
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Yes, the place is chaotic, but I think it'll calm down in a few days. I don't see many of the new people taking part in the business threads, so once they have adapted to the place and cooled down about TORC, I don't think there'll be such chaos.

Maybe I haven't rightly understood what is supposed to be done here, but in general I don't like the idea of a self-appointed panel (or Voronwe-appointed ;) ) to take things in hand.

(Not criticising you personally, Voronwe, I just dislike it when a few people talk about something, and when they find they agree, somehow conclude that this was a decision for the board.)

If this panel is only meant to sort out what needs discussing and put the right threads in the right places, I'm fine with it.
But even then there should be an announcement thread about it, and three or four days waiting time, in which people could say whether they have an objection about the idea or who is to be on the panel.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sat 05 Mar , 2005 1:06 am
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Nin - I think it would be an asset that at least one person is not a native or reagular speaker of English and can testify if all is clear and understandable for the linguistic handicaped like me.

Excellent point! I worry about this all the time.

TH - I have to confess that I am getting a bid fed-up with the process. There will be a huge flurry of activity with every person expressing three conflicting opinions and starting multiple threads, and then no one shows up in the forum for days. We really, really need a committee.

But there are two things that we can do in the creation of a committee that will address the concerns you raised:

1. Anyone who wants to be on it gets to be on it. :) That's how the Business Forum is operating right now - whoever has an opinion just expresses it in the thread. So now they join the committee. But they have to *join* the committee and not just spam up the place with new issues.

2. When chunks of decision are made, we put the whole chunk to a vote. For example, right now the content of the stickies in the Jury Room are up for discussion. There are a few unresolved issues that I've asked people to discuss, but when that discussion dies down and people either no longer have a disagreement or just don't care anymore, I'll put up a poll asking people to vote on the whole set-up in its entirety. Approve or Disapprove.
If they approve, we'll have our Grand Opening.

If you recall, I talked about 'governance by objection' when we started this process and that basically is how it works. All suggestions go in, things that are objected to come out (or, if they're not too thorny they get modified), and then we have at least a basic set-up at our disposal. Details can always be changed, but at least we'll have something to work with.

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sat 05 Mar , 2005 2:03 am
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I've said my piece, and have no more say on the subject. If it is decided that a panel is going to be formed, and that I am to be on it, someone email or PM to let me know. :)


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Sassafras
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Posted: Sat 05 Mar , 2005 3:03 am
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Briefly.

Voronwe's idea is an excellent one.
Quote:
It is my perception that board77 is in danger of spinning off into anarchy. I love the basic democratic nature of the place, and I would not fundamentally change that, but we suffer from a lack of a process to allow us to make effective decisions for moving forward into the future. With everybody and everyone allowed to start a poll about anything, each vote becomes more and more meaningless.
The trend toward anarachy has been obvious for a while. I've just been too damn lazy to formulate anything beyond vague mutterings to various people via email and IM. So I very much thank those of you who are prepared to head this off at the pass.

I think you should have a separate forum in which to discuss this among yourselves. A forum that is hidden from the rest of us.
Unlike Hobby I am completely at ease with the people already mentioned as panel members. I trust to the good sense of all of you and I trust your collective competance in implementing a workable structure for b77.

Thank you guys. I wish I were more civic minded ... but I am not, nor do I possess the necessary organizational skills.

Whatsoever you all decide, you have my full support.


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