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The Problem with Board77

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Farawen
Post subject: The Problem with Board77
Posted: Sat 02 Jul , 2005 10:16 pm
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Let me preface this with the following: you have my permission to move this thread, lock it, delete it, whatever you feel is best for this board. If there's a consensus that this thread causes board disruption and needs to be deleted, I'll be the last person on here to argue.

Also, I realize that this thread won't be very popular and might raise some uncomfortable issues; for those of you who have posted with me before, I hope you'll know that this isn't me trying to stir some shit for the sake of stirring shit. For those of you who don't know me, I can only hope you'll take my word on it. If this post ends up hurting some people, I apologize in advance. This may sound like an old phrase, but if I didn't care about you, I wouldn't post this. I would just grab my bags and close the door behind me.

I think there's a problem here. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who thinks so, but I won't suck anyone into my Life of Crime by naming them here. They will chime in if they feel comfortable enough to do so, and/or if they think it'll do good.

Anway. Here goes.

There are a few things that can happen in a tightly-knit group. If the group is a closed group, the effects are even more striking. It's pure sociology, and it's highly interesting. Here are some examples:

Groupthink - To a certain extent, Groupthink occurs in every group. Members of a group tend to a) seek complete harmony within the group, and thus usually don't voice their dissenting opinions; those that do are looked upon as mischiefs and troublemakers within the group, or are accused of not getting the point of the discussion; b) agree on a certain procedure, etc. prematurely before exploring other possibilities; and c) consider the group's decisions to be correct while everybody outside the group is wrong.

Primacy Effect - We tend to believe that the first opinion, or the one voiced most loudly, is correct, even if we have proof otherwise. In groups, the "quieter" members therefore will share the views of those who have the loudest voice; or they will become "troublemakers".

Collective Primacy Effect - Members of a group tend to discuss only shared knowledge. And since they believe they are self-sufficient and independent, they usually don't consider other views and outsiders' knowledge.

Risky Shift - People in groups tend to make far more risky decisions than when they are alone, because they believe that the group can't possibly be wrong. Historical examples for Risky Shifts and their effects: Watergate and the Vietnam War.

Enough with theory.

After having come back after an extended leave of absence, the reasons for which shall not be discussed here, I do not recognize this board anymore.

This has nothing to do with it being an open board now, and this has nothing to do with having new posters on here that I don't recognize. It's some of my dearest TORC friends, and I'm proud to call them that, who have changed beyond recognition. I have lurked on here this past week, and I've also been reading some of the recent threads on here, and I've come across certain people's user titles and certain people's sigs, and I couldn't help but think, WTF is going on here?

A few months ago there'd been no way in hell that somebody like Jnyusa had a title like "Practically Wonder Woman" and a sig text that goes with it. I realize that there's no doubt a healthy helping of humor in there, but my point is, a few months ago she wouldn't have found that kind of humor amusing. She would have called it smug.

A few months ago something like the drama around *E* voicing a dissenting opinion in this thread: *link removed upon request* would NEVER have happened. I don't know what is was exactly that happened there, but it sure scared the crap out of me. And Voronwe did, too.

Then there's the constitution project. Guys, you rock, and it's a kick-ass project, and once it's done it'll be even more kick-ass. But it almost seems to me like it has become a project for the sake of being a project. Yes, we need rules on here, and we need rules when we post with each other; but there are rules and then there are constitutions... Also, I remember watching Faramond getting frustrated with the way things were handled there. He voiced a dissenting opinion and was basically told that he didn't understand what was being talked about. Groupthink. Right there.

Guys, what's going on? We used to argue with each other, we used to have fun with each other, this place used to swarm with life. I come back after a few months and the place seems dead to me, and I find myself avoiding certain people.

Is it because I was gone for a while and am out of touch? Maybe. If I'm the only one on here who feels that something has changed in people's attitudes, forgive me for not letting sleeping dogs lie. I just... needed to say it.

The chakra around here is that you can post anything as long as you do so respectfully. Great. But what is the use in posting something respectfully if posting it may make people think of you as a dissenter, or a disturber of the peace? Can we please stop with the smugness? Can we please be aware of the dangers of certain psychological effects that occur in groups?

Please?

Last edited by Farawen on Sun 03 Jul , 2005 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: Re: The Problem with Board77
Posted: Sat 02 Jul , 2005 11:09 pm
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Farawen wrote:
A few months ago something like the drama around *E* voicing a dissenting opinion in this thread: Threads that have to go before we open would NEVER have happened. I don't know what is was exactly that happened there, but it sure scared the crap out of me. And Voronwe did, too.
Farawen, I'm confused about exactly what it was that I did that scared the crap out of you. Can you elaborate please? :neutral:


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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Sat 02 Jul , 2005 11:40 pm
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I find message board dynamics interesting and (relative) outsider viewpoints are particularly valuable. I was fascinated by the TORCquakes for instance and how they developed. The recent period of board building was an unusual chapter in our history and may not be a marker for the future. I can understand what Farawen says about strong personalities tending to hold sway but there are plenty of individualistic people here. Part of the mutual agreement may be a reaction to the divisive arguments seen elsewhere.

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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 12:36 am
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You make a fair point Farawen. I'm not sure I agree, but I can understand where you're coming from.

I'm not sure what can be done about it. Of course, in any group there will emerge at some stage leaders, followers and opposition. That's the nature of any community. Only the flux created by new blood or apathy on the part of those here will change the status quo. At least we are now open. If people join the board they have a voice. The constitution has achieved that much at least. Anyone can change the atmosphere on this board simply by taking part and if necessary challenging the (real or percieved) complacency as you have done.

Only time will tell if this board lives or dies, but only those willing to take part and get involved will have a say in that. Those who walk away no longer have a voice.

Thanks for raising the issue Farawen. I hope you're wrong.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 12:37 am
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I think the general observations on group behaviour are all very true!

I also think it's true that the mood/atmosphere/whatever of the board has shifted in the past few months.

But I think that before that shift, there were exactly the same groupthink dynamics as there are now, only the focus of these dynamics has changed!
Quote:
Members of a group tend to a) seek complete harmony within the group, and thus usually don't voice their dissenting opinions; those that do are looked upon as mischiefs and troublemakers within the group, or are accused of not getting the point of the discussion; b) agree on a certain procedure, etc. prematurely before exploring other possibilities; and c) consider the group's decisions to be correct while everybody outside the group is wrong
I think this is a perfect description of what the board was like in the past!

I'm not saying it's not like that now - in fact, I think it's very likely that it's impossible to break out of those group dynamics.

I just wanted to point out that things never used to be different on that level.

The things on which the groupthink agreed have changed - personally I like the new one better than the old one, but that's not the point here.

But I agree it's good to remain aware of those dynamics.


(I find Jny's avatar and title rather funny, btw.)

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laureanna
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 4:28 am
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I don't know what is was exactly that happened there, but it sure scared the crap out of me. And Voronwe did, too.
Since the last post Voronwe had was to agree with everything I said, I hope I didn't scare the crap out of you, too. And if I did, I need to be told why.

I agree with much of what you say, Farawen. I'm certainly a different person than I was when I stumbled into TORC two years ago. What I needed then, and what I found in abundance, was passion. Passion about how movies ought to be made. Passion about the definition of right and wrong. Passion about how to interpret a beloved story. I spent hours reading others' well crafted essays, and hours crafting my own.

Studying Tolkien was very much like studying a religion. It involved poring over the sacred texts, interpreting and comparing notes, and applying the texts to matters of ethics, morality and daily life. But that particular method is exhausted now. It has been talked to death, and there is no passion left in it. The mass banning was a passionate subject, for a short time. The constitution was a passion for some of our members, only some, but it is almost complete. What is the next thing we can talk deeply about? Is there anything?

There are plenty of people around who can chat about the weather, the latest news, and sundry idle talk. I'm not one of them. I'm sure this message board will continue with the friendly chatter, but that is not enough to keep me here. When I started message boarding I had more time. I made time. I gave up all my other activities and message boarding became my sole passion. I can't continue to do that indefinitely. And I certainly won't do it for light chat. I suspect there are some juicy and passionate threads going on here, but by the time I finish with my ranger duties here, each time I sign on (reading all the organizing and activity threads), there is no time left for the deeply thoughtful threads, not even just to lurk.


:neutral:

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 5:13 am
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Farawen,

I have to agree with Hobby, and agree strongly with her, that the groupthink mentality you describe is a better characterization of B77 six months go than of B77 today.

The thread you cite is the best example of how fully this community has developed its ability to absorb and consider different opinions without going haywire. It is not evenly remotely indicative of failure. That thread ran for twenty days. It’s 37 pages long. Fifty-one different people posted in it. When the thread was started, one opinion dominated. Through discussion people changed their minds completely, and they did so without anyone storming out in a huff or insulting anyone else or breaking out in hives. That thread is one of the finest examples of democratic consensus building that I’ve ever seen.

No one criticized *E* for having a different opinion. She entered on page 34, sixteen days into the discussion, and opened her post with an explanation that she had not read the thread! What people said to her was, “You have to read the thread.”

Why? Because we’ve suddenly turned haughty and dictatorial? No, because in this case, so many people’s minds had changed as a result of the discussion that *E* could not possibly understand the turnaround without reading the thread.

My dear Farawen, this is not groupthink. Building agreement out of such diverse opinions on a sensitive subject is the very opposite of groupthink.

You cannot diagnose a living, growing community by quoting from a textbook. You have to be inside of it and all around it and with it over time. The value of outside perspectives lies in their objectivity, but your perspective cannot be objective because you were an insider here for most of the board's existence.

Anyway, all of the textbook symptoms you think you see here are small group phenomena. We are not a small group by any definition and have not been for a long time. If you want to talk about the madness of crowds... :P but groupthink belongs to cliques, not to communities. We are a community now.

Of course the leadership evolves - God help us if it did not - because the needs of the board change and different people are good at different things. I’m not talking here about myself and Voronwe but about people like Imp, Pips, Mossy, and truehobbit, all of whom have stepped forward to be completely in charge of various things necessary for our opening. This is in addition to, not instead of the continuous and enormous time commitments of Alandriel and all the current and former Rangers and the members of the Charter committee.

The last time you and I spoke, we were just beginning the process of writing the Charter. I put myself forward to lead that task because I had done it before in other contexts and was willing to do it here if people trusted me to get us started. I undertook that task feeling a great deal of responsibility and trepidation. Only a megalomaniac would feel smug at the beginning of such a task. I was anal and methodical and would not put my own opinion forward by so much as voting first on a ballot I had posted.

Today, after 42 successful ballots, I am freely and gloriously smug and immensely proud of the committee and of everyone on this board. Allow me to indulge in this moment of smug joy and self-congratulation and member-congratulation. You do not know me at all if you think I do not crow about success.

And we have succeeded. We’ve created self-governance and we did it in a self-governing manner without excluding anyone who wanted to participate in the process. When I look around me today I see no moderators, no administrators with absolute power, and no upheavals. I see people expressing their opinions and disagreements on difficult subjects in an orderly, respectful manner.

Meanwhile all the regular discussion threads have continued, and they will expand in the future. New members will join and they will stay, because we have great people here, all capable of insight and mutual friendship.

I think we have very, very much to be proud of, and if everyone here feels smug today, I congratulate them. It is the appropriate emotion for the occasion.

Jn

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DaMuzikMan
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 6:13 am
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jnyusa wrote:
We are a community now.
...that has the potential of having cliques within itself.

I do my best to read as many posts as I can and I do my best to remember who has what view on things. Not necessarily because I'm afraid of offending anyone, more because I like to get an idea on what I can say that people will appreciate.

And there are definitely people who get overlooked in the shuffle of debate. No one's fault, really, sometimes the person getting overlooked just posted at the wrong place in the wrong time.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is... when people are having a logical discussion, sometimes they can have the tendency to keep the discussion between themselves, even if someone else posts their insight. Kind of like in a real life conversation, say you're having a deep insightful argument with a friend and someone runs by and says "Ooooh, can I put in my two cents?" Your first reaction is to wish that person would move on and not have interrupted you. That's also the danger of a public forum. Relationships are made, and relationships are not made, and while everyone has an equal voice, sometimes people (accidentally) find themselves not listening.

I am one of the people that finds myself overlooked from time to time (possibly because I like to post concisely, a few sentences here and there that contribute what I think), and I often find myself wondering "Do people actually read what I have to say?" The reality is, I'm sure they do, but that doesn't change the fact that they have to post their rebuttal or their support to what so-and-so said. It's a question of priorities.

Cliques and other forms of small group behavior will happen, whether we want them to or not.

EDIT: I'd just like to add that I love this board and have been reading it ever since a few months... well, actually probably weeks... before I joined (over Ang's shoulder, mostly), and I've given this quite a bit of thought already. I really like the direction things are going so far.

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Wilma
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 6:41 am
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I find this discussion interesting. If anyone will notice I did not change my opinion throughout that whole thread, and I still to some degree disagree with everyone.

I am on the fence. i will say to some degree that maybe Farawen you have been gone for a while, things look different. You made that choice. (I do not need to know the reason.)

Also, I did feel that everyone thought, well Wilma is being stubborn and not seeing reason. Since evryone else changed their minds and I didn't (still haven't to some degree).So yeah I think I felt some group think.
But you know the discussion was open to everyone. I spoke to some people who seemed to agree with me, but i do not think many of those people voted and also, the thread received many pages very quickly and people were probably put off by all the pages they had to read. Then they saw what happened to *E* and well..... I do not know.

I think the business forum puts people off. So I think that is why it may appear some group think is going on there. I know I avoid it, since the stuff I read there is so over my head it gives me a headache. So only when there is a really burning issue will I make my voice heard.

Thank You for starting this thread, Farawen. I hope for very honest discussion since I think some understanding can be accomplished. :)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 6:53 am
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Cliques and other forms of small group behavior will happen, whether we want them to or not.

Yes, and this has been a sort of recurring concern because of the early invite process. One M00bie would come in and invite all their friends. Then one Manweista would come in and invite all their friends. So there were these waves of people from different forums of TORC :) and they brought with them a pre-existing culture and, of course, did not know all the other people here.

We had a few discussions about whether to yield to this or fight against it, but in the end it sort of went away by itself because we were required to discuss together and vote together on so many things that affected the whole board. It might be that some members still view the totality as a conglomeration of cliques, but I don't think this view is really accurate.

It is certainly not accurate for the thread that Farawen talked about. That was just about the most catholic thread I've ever seen, given the topic and the number of active members we had at that moment. People came out of 'retirement' just to post there. Members might have been tearing their hair out in private, but everyone was perfectly civil and tolerant and supportive in the thread.

We still have Charter ratification votes to hold, and all the new members are entitled to discuss and to vote. I do believe that will serve as an equalizer.

I am one of the people that finds myself overlooked from time to time (possibly because I like to post concisely, a few sentences here and there that contribute what I think)

DMM, you are a victim of the law of large numbers. The more words that appear in a post, the greater the chance of attracting opposition. :D

Jn

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Farawen
Post subject: Re: The Problem with Board77
Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 1:11 pm
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Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Farawen, I'm confused about exactly what it was that I did that scared the crap out of you. Can you elaborate please?
I thought you were strangely condescending and dismissive, which was a new one to me.
Tosh wrote:
I find message board dynamics interesting and (relative) outsider viewpoints are particularly valuable.
I find them very interesting as well. And I must admit to being surprised that a few months gone have already made me an "outsider", because I came back here and thought, "Huh?". I guess I was being naive.
Alatar wrote:
I'm not sure what can be done about it. Of course, in any group there will emerge at some stage leaders, followers and opposition. That's the nature of any community.
You're completely right about leaders, followers, and opposition emerging, of course. I do not challenge that because it's the natural thing to happen, I agree. But as soon as the opposition is not "working" correctly, and as soon as those who voice a dissenting opinion tend to be looked upon as disturbers of the peace, we're in a tight spot.

Democracy doesn't work without a functioning opposition, I guess. Who will challenge our ideas if we don't do it ourselves? Non-members of this board won't come in here and point us to the things we're doing wrong. But then again, cozy Groupfeel is usually more attractive than arguing.
Quote:
Only the flux created by new blood or apathy on the part of those here will change the status quo. At least we are now open. If people join the board they have a voice. The constitution has achieved that much at least. Anyone can change the atmosphere on this board simply by taking part and if necessary challenging the (real or percieved) complacency as you have done.
See, that's where I see the problem. Why should new people join this board if they lurk around, read some posts, and are taken aback by the Groupthink going on? I came back because I've been here before; I doubt I would have registered earlier this week if I hadn't.


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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 1:46 pm
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Outsider was then the wrong word. I picked up that you were looking at things with a relatively fresh eye and such viewpoints are useful. We can't wholely prevent the natural drift of human behaviour but the simple awareness of the tendencies you mention can keep us on our guard.

Where does groupthink end and democracy start? In the thread you mentioned I started off with the attitude that I wanted the result that distressed people the least. It was the unfolding discussion that led me to change my mind that clarity and honesty were better in the long term. This made me feel very sorry for *E* and Wilma and sympathetic to them. In the end though the vote of the majority settled the question.

I think that if groupthink was so seductive we wouldn't have felt so desperately that we needed to open and to hear new voices. In fact posts like yours are just the sort of thing we need.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: Re: The Problem with Board77
Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 1:54 pm
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Farawen wrote:
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Farawen, I'm confused about exactly what it was that I did that scared the crap out of you. Can you elaborate please?
I thought you were strangely condescending and dismissive, which was a new one to me.
Well, that's a new one to me, as well. As Jn points out above, the problem that I was having with what *E* was saying was not that I disagreed with her but that she was coming in at the end of a very long, exhausting discussion, and expressing opinions about it without bothering to read what people actually had said. From my point of view it was *E* that was being dismissive, not I. I get the feeling that you are doing exactly the same thing. Did you read that whole discussion, or just the last few pages?

Its really amazing because, like Jn and Hobby, my perception of the way things are now compared to four or five months ago is completely opposite to yours. I think that things are much less cliquish then they were then. Decisions are made through consensus building rather then one person or a small group arbitrarily making them. There is much, much less conflict and people tend to treat each other more respectfully and more courteously then they did then. And we have most of a governmental structure in place to help make sure that these changes continue to be maintained.

You know, Farawen, on the one hand I am glad that you raised these issues, because I think that these type of things should always be talked out. But on the other hand, it is difficult for me to take what you say very seriously after your frankly ridiculous attack on Jnyusa and her new picture and tongue-in-cheek Rank, as well as on the Charter process.

You seem to have a personal vendetta against Jn and I and the work that we have done in moving the Charter forward and getting the board opened. I can't quite figure out why that it is. I have always considered you a friend, and I was saddened by your long absence from this site, which I never understood. But I am even more saddened to learn that I have sunk so low in your estimation. So much so that all of my pride and joy in the board's success in completing the most important parts of the charter and successfully opening have been completely washed away. :(


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Farawen
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:00 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
I have to agree with Hobby, and agree strongly with her, that the groupthink mentality you describe is a better characterization of B77 six months go than of B77 today.
I know. I've been there, and I probably was the most Groupthinking Groupthinker that ever Groupthought back then. Heck, back in the days we were ready to throw things at everyone and anyone who as much as dared looking at our board sceptically! Or, um, at least I was. :whistle:

But the difference is that back then we had a cause to unite us, and we looked to this community to support and uphold us in a time when our former internet home exploded all over the place, and we did what we did knowingly. There was a consensus that it was "Us" and "Them". What I'm saying is, nowadays there's no reason for any Groupthink on here, and it is my assumption that most of the b77 regulars nowadays don't realize that there's Groupthink going on.

Case in point, I am absolutely not surprised that you defend what went on in that thread I linked to; frankly, I was expecting you to.
Quote:
That thread is one of the finest examples of democratic consensus building that I’ve ever seen.

Why? Because we’ve suddenly turned haughty and dictatorial? No, because in this case, so many people’s minds had changed as a result of the discussion that *E* could not possibly understand the turnaround without reading the thread.
I did not accuse anyone of turning haughty and dictatorial. That's really not what happens in groups. It's this I have a problem with: Through discussion people changed their minds completely, and they did so without anyone storming out in a huff or insulting anyone else or breaking out in hives. Of course they didn't! Because voicing dissent will result in an uncomfortable atmosphere. That's what I'm talking about. And while no one stormed off throwing a fit, how about those whose reasons for not participating, at all or any more, are related to the way things are handled?
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My dear Farawen, this is not groupthink. Building agreement out of such diverse opinions on a sensitive subject is the very opposite of groupthink.

You cannot diagnose a living, growing community by quoting from a textbook. You have to be inside of it and all around it and with it over time. The value of outside perspectives lies in their objectivity, but your perspective cannot be objective because you were an insider here for most of the board's existence.
I'm actually a bit speechless that you'd be throwing this at me. I have to be inside of a community and with it all the time before I can form a valuable opinion on it? Then I guess my political science professors were just messing with my head when they expected me to take four semesters' wirth of comparative study of governmental and societal systems, because I sure as heck would have a hard time being inside Italian government and society and say, French at the same time. Not to mention the German society that most of the time I can't help being inside of. Also, the problem with your assertion is that as soon as you're inside the group you'll be exposed to Groupthink, and how you can then have an objective perspective is something you'll have to explain to me again.

Also, are you really telling me here that I can't objectively judge how a community has changed over a period of time because I was a member of said community before that period of time? Why not? Because I may tend to see things brighter than they are?

And by the way, I'm not sure you intended it that way, but in that context your addressing me as your dear Farawen came across a bit patronizing, IMO. No worries, I just wanted to let you know that it had that effect on me.
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Groupthink belongs to cliques, not to communities. We are a community now.
b77 may be a community, but there's no way you'll convince me that there's not a clique of spokespersons on here.
Quote:
And we have succeeded. We’ve created self-governance and we did it in a self-governing manner without excluding anyone who wanted to participate in the process. When I look around me today I see no moderators, no administrators with absolute power, and no upheavals. I see people expressing their opinions and disagreements on difficult subjects in an orderly, respectful manner.
What you don't see though are the people who read this board and raise their eyebrows in irritation without ever saying anything, or the people who have completely stopped coming here just because of what is going on here, or the people who have come here, briefly thought about registering and voicing some of the problems they have with this board but thought better of it because seriously, who would listen to them anyway?

And since I'm already at it, I'll go the whole nine yards and fully indulge in the role of the devil's advocate now. Yes, you have done something great with the constitution project, and you can be proud of yourselves and if you want to, you can of course be smug too. But imagine for a second how one who isn't a member of this group feels when they come across an internet community of 200 something posters, two-thirds of whom post regularly (I'm estimating here), and go "Dude, we like, OMG so rock because we have this constitution"?


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Farawen
Post subject: Re: The Problem with Board77
Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:03 pm
Far out
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Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
You seem to have a personal vendetta against Jn and I and the work that we have done in moving the Charter forward and getting the board opened.
Before I reply at length let me just express my utter surprise at the fact that we are back at throwing the V-Word around.


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:12 pm
Hasta la victoria, siempre
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"Dude, we like, OMG so rock because we have this constitution"?

I think the people who've worked so hard on putting together a failsafe constitution have every right to be proud of their hard work! If TORC had been so well put together then I don't think the shitstorm would have had a hope in hell of getting out of hand like it did, nor would it have ended in bannings. You are far to quick to dismiss all the effort that's been put into making this board the community you see before you while you were away (for whatever reason). I don't think you have to agree with everything people say but I would be extremely offended if it was all my input being attacked so. I might be a n00b, so I've missed out on a lot of stuff but I have to say I honestly don't see what your problem is. Nobody has gone around trying to change everything just to spite you.

Edit: Sorry to come across so angry-like. I guess it's not very fair, since I haven't been here from the start, and I'm no messageboard psychologist; more to the point I don't know you too well. I'll leave my original post intact though. I'm sure you don't mean to stir shit, as you said. But I do think you came across as overly dismissive of all the hard work that's gone on here,

*~Pips~*

Last edited by Pippin4242 on Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lidless
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:13 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Farawen wrote:
Before I reply at length let me just express my utter surprise at the fact that we are back at throwing the V-Word around.
Me too.

Last edited by Lidless on Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Farawen
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:23 pm
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Okay, you know what, nevermind. Being accused of storming off on a personal vendetta and attacking people because I supposedly feel they've changed everything just to spite me is where I draw the line.

Jn, Voronwe, and everybody else, let me just put it this way: you guys rock, but you were much, much more fun to be around when you weren't TPTB.

And just for the sake of full disclosure since the reason for my absence has come up several times now: I left this board because I was attacked by another member in a way I wasn't ever attacked at TORC for as long as I posted there, and while there's been a lot of talk about how this board lives on all members being respectful to one another, I couldn't help but feel that there was not so much with the respect there and then. This isn't part of this discussion though.

Good luck, guys.


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Pippin4242
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:25 pm
Hasta la victoria, siempre
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Um, Farawen? Sorry... I'm not trying to drive anyone out. That post I made was probably not helped by my extremely poor choice of words... :(

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Eruname
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 2:26 pm
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You've changed Farawen....if you think that people are attacking you in this thread, you've definately changed. You seem to mistake stating a personal opinion for an attack.

This is a valuable discussion going on here and you're just going to leave like that? You're not even giving this a fair chance are you?

edit: and there are no PTB Farawen. Jn and Voronwe have no more power than you and I.

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