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To Edit or Not To Edit, That Is the Question

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Axordil
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Posted: Sun 07 Aug , 2005 2:59 am
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It's clear to me that there is more than one model of communiction active here, more than one metaphor for our discussion. Some of what we post (Turf, the Media rooms, ToE) is indeed conversational, light or serious, middle of a crowded room or off in an intimate corner. Some (RP and other quasifiction comes to mind) are creative endeavors. Some (Symposium threads, B-room discussions) can occasionally resemble a debate. And some (Jury Room deliberations) are unique...

Trying to find one rule to wring them all seems to me pointless and yet futile. I do not think consensus on such would ever be possible, and even IRV would leave a majority unhappy with any compromise.

So either we have forum-specific expectations on editing, and implied ownership, or we have a rule so vague that it comes down what it will anyway: common sense, courtesy, and the occasional knife fight. I mean discussion.

Should I edit that last bit? ...

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Anthriel
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Posted: Sun 07 Aug , 2005 3:18 am
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I understand the frustration that people can feel when someone edits a post, and it changes the backstory of an ongoing debate.

I really do.

There is a great deal of wisdom in the argument that one's post is woven immediately into the fabric of this board, whenever one hits the submit button. There is beautiful logic in the point that deleting posts is deleting history, and changing the hue of any pattern that follows it. There is tremendous validity in saying that the time to consider one's words is before submitting them, rather than after. There's really no arguing with any of that.

However, we are not perfect people, here at b77. There are many of you who are close, of course, but certainly some of us are... not. :) We say things we later regret, or circumstances change which affect the appropriateness of certain words, or confidences blythely shared one day can feel like embarrassingly stark TMI on the next.

And I am much more of a proponent, generally, of maximizing freedom and minimizing rules. ;)

So, in a very simplistic and sparsely worded post, which I feel shameful about inserting in such a rich and eloquent thread, I am just gonna have to say: you can wrench my edit button out of my cold, dead fingers.

:D


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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 3:58 am
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TORN,

I'm aware of the legal issues here. As tolkienpurist was nice enough to point out, this was written with the philosophical perspective in mind. I would like to point out that some messageboards do allow you to transfer ownership of posts and pictures, as a way to reconcile the two. Some simply don't allow edits or deletions. I haven't decided what model of legal ownership I like.

Let me try to explain it this way. On a message board like this, the posts exist as independent entities, but they have been voluntarily placed in a structure that is being cooperatively built by the members. If I scratch the surface of one of my bricks (correct the spelling) I don't harm the structure by this action. If I remove one of my bricks, I have started to weaken the structure and if I remove enough, the structure may collapse.

You have to be patient with the analogy because it fails in several dimensions, including that we aren't talking about inert bricks, but networks of interdependent thoughts and ideas. The structural concept of damage remains valid, though.

I'm not sure what the benfit is of us creating these structures if they can be destroyed on a whim by any of the participants. Legal or not, it must be a disservice to the other participants of one member destroys the structure.

Your comments about preservation are apt. I do work in a world where all of that is required and the only choice is how to implement it. Because this need is somewhat pervasive, most software supports the underlying resources required to implement this and the cost, which is essentially disk space is trivial. Simply put, the resource cost for preservation is a nit.


Voronwe,

Thanks for making a place for this.

You have expressed my own feelings very well. I think you and I agree on what was wrong with the thread in question and that it was also an important thread. I hope you agree it was possible to preserve it in a way that allowed the injured to be spared most of the pain and the board to preserve an important part of its history. It is precisely because there is no control or procedure to guide this process, that the ad hoc destruction of the thread was allowed to happen.

Since no one seems to have noticed, its probably time to say that I meant what I said above, which you may not have noticed. I do think the community can have rights and responsibilities related to modification and/or destruction of the words. That may appear to be in conflict with my pages of arguments about the fate of the thread. My argument about the fate of the thread concerns the fact that this board chose a different model of behavior, one that I don't actually agree with. It chose a model that is in our Charter and we have an obligation to adhere to it or change it. If we both disregard it and keep it, we have no integrity and anything we utter is worthless.


Prim,

As I think I said, there should be a legitimate period for modification. It could be in an even longer statement that is unposted. There are some easily defined markers that are used. One is the first viewing after the post. Another is the first response. Of these, I prefer the first response. It can also be timed. I usually shudder (no not for that reason) on viewing a post after it is submitted and of course I correct some typos.


Impenitent and Tosh,

I hope you have seen my statements in ToE about that situation. It is a different world with a different set of issues related to privacy. I am on record as begging for a different treatment for that forum.


tolkienpurist,

The issue of privacy is an important consideration and you should note I have said where privacy is concerned, there should be a different set of rules. The board has already recognized this somewhat for ToE and the Member's Lounge. As I said above, I think I have pressured more for privacy protection in ToE than anyone else and I think the current arrangement is unsuitable because it offers too little protection.

In the world in which this board exists, the expectation is that the words will persist until they are intentionally removed. This is not a conversation at the pub.


Frelga,

I participate in boards where I can't change a word or delete after submission. It isn't abnormal.

If you read my response to Voronwe, you will notice that I agree that a board can exert control over posts. You should also notice that isn't the model this board chose. As I have been saying for about a month, the issue is integrity. Are we who we say we are? At the moment the answer looks like "no" to me.


Jnyusa,

Thanks for the response. Also, that's an interesting postscript.


4 of 10,

As I have noted several times in this post, I work on boards that allow no revision, so this isn't an abnormal view. Please read the first few portions of this response.


Axordil,

I agree with you that differant fora have different privacy issues. Please read my responses to Impenitent and tolkienpurist.


Anthriel,

I hope there is someplace in the middle for us to meet. If you have read this far, you should know I think allowance should be made for some things. I would like you to consider the loss from the hypothetical deletion of dhspgt's posts from Crispy's "Are They Important Films" written elsewhere.


Edit:

Because I could

Last edited by IdylleSeethes on Mon 08 Aug , 2005 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 4:11 am
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IdylleSeethes wrote:
Impenitent and Tosh,

I hope you have seen my statements in ToE about that situation. It is a different world with a different set of issues related to privacy. I am on record as begging for a different treatment for that forum.
Yes, of course. :) I put the point here because not all who post here can read there so I thought it worth pointing out in this thread also.

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Anthriel
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 4:52 am
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IS wrote:
Anthriel,

I hope there is someplace in the middle for us to meet. If you have read this far, you should know I think allowance should be made for some things. I would like you to consider the loss from the hypothetical deletion of dhspgt's posts from Crispy's "Are They Important Films" written elsewhere.
I DO understand what a loss that would be, IS. I completely and whole-heartedly agree with you. I come here, nearly every day, to soak up the words and thoughts of people like dhspgt, and people like you. If your words were to go away, I would mourn their loss.

And if we factor in the fact that you agree allowance should be made for some things, I don't believe we need to try to meet in the middle at all.

I believe we are there.


Quote:
Edit:

Because I could
:LMAO:


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 5:15 am
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I'm curious about boards where members cannot edit their posts. I've been on only a few, and I would guess on those it was related to technical limitations rather than policy—there were always complaints.

This is a board where people post for pleasure. That pleasure is complex (and sometimes mixed) because for many here it comes from the community. By that I mean both the diverse group of people who've chosen to hang out here, and the whatever-it-is we're building together, this thing we care about to varying degrees that isn't just ourselves—what we mean when we type "b77."

I am trying to envision this association with a rule in place, or even a custom, demanding that no one edit a post once it has been replied to.

Idylle, you've given an example of what would be a devastating edit-after-the-fact. But how often is the capability used in such a damaging way? Is it really so appalling that, say, someone who posts an admission while drunk that they would not have made sober when can go back in the morning, edit it away, pretend that no one saw—and thus be able go on posting on the board? Or that someone who posts something nasty while in a towering rage, then cools down and reconsiders, can go back and at least edit in an apology?

Or that someone who prides herself on her editing skills can fix an egregious typo a day later, even if she then feels compelled to post a note admitting what she's done? :roll:

Yes, editing after the fact can be used to damage the community. But it's a capability that is important to a lot of people, and is widely accepted and even expected on message boards where people post for fun. To try to impose a rule, or even a community standard, that no one edits once there has been a reply would, I think, have a significant chilling effect on this community.

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Eruname
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 5:38 am
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
Idylle, you've given an example of what would be a devastating edit-after-the-fact. But how often is the capability used in such a damaging way?
I'd say very rarely.

I've only seen it done once. It was done on a board full of young teenagers.

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 5:41 am
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I believe there are conflicting goods here, and that means a tough problem to solve. There is not a shread of doubt in my mind that Idylle is correct when he describes the corrosive effects of too much editing on the community. And yet there is also no doubt that to deny an individual the right to govern how they participate on the boards, even after the fact, as it were, is dangerous in its own right.

To ask that posts, often entered hastily and in the heat of discussion, be thought of with the same solidity as bricks seems to me a metaphorical constraint. Words jotted down on the back of a napkin, perhaps, or scribbles in the sand--these are closer in terms of moment for the vast majority of us. But if bricks they are, they are very special bricks indeed, because placing one in position actually changes the shape of the building very slightly...and helps determine how future bricks can be laid...and can even change the appearance of the bricks that came before it. The relationship is more holistic, even holographic, in terms of storing and moving memes around, than that of a static structure.

All of which is a fancy way of saying that while individual posts and threads are vulnerable, the ideas they express and discuss are much less so. For one thing, they are viral. At this point in time, I would hazard a guess that more than twenty times the number of posts have been made in regards to the Wilko thread than exist in the actual thread, not to mention the posts in it that are (or were) questionable. In other words, the effort to erase history has guarenteed its permanence; even if the whole thread were to be yanked tomorrow, its memes would remain, via the multitudinous references in the threads that touch on it, officially or unofficially.

And even if a contingent of Peter Jackson's Scrubbing Bubbles could be harnassed to erase EVERY mention, reference, allusion, and echo of the thread, the effects would still be there EVERY time we post on ANY subject related to it. Like a tree that has grown around a barbed-wire fence, we will bear the scar long after the wire is rust.


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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 5:46 am
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Axordil wrote:
And even if a contingent of Peter Jackson's Scrubbing Bubbles could be harnassed to erase EVERY mention, reference, allusion, and echo of the thread, the effects would still be there EVERY time we post on ANY subject related to it. Like a tree that has grown around a barbed-wire fence, we will bear the scar long after the wire is rust.
Yes.

So beautifully put! :love:

Are you a writer, by any chance? ;)

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 6:44 am
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Axordil,

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

I love puzzles. One of my hobbies is trying to find coherence in Arthurian legends written over a span of a thousand years in several languages, and with enough holes to make Swiss cheese look solid. I can agree that if someone had the time and energy the thread could be reconstructed from posts external to it. I find that entertaining but not useful. There must be a better way.

- Do you think we have a right to expect a thread like ATIF to maintain its integrity?

- If so, can we manage that in a way that allows posters limited control over their posts?

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Rowanberry
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 9:38 am
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
I'm curious about boards where members cannot edit their posts. I've been on only a few, and I would guess on those it was related to technical limitations rather than policy—there were always complaints.
I'm a member on one site where this decision is due to policy. There, members are awarded with one user point for every post of at least 200 characters, and people used to unnecessarily edit their posts just to make them long enough to gain points, because certain amounts of user points give the member certain privilegies on that site. (I guess there wasn't a possibility to make the post length calculating system ignore edits.) So, the board management decided to turn the right to edit one's own posts into a special privilege that's only given to members who have proved themselves able to use it in a proper manner. (That, of course, has its downside - it has lead to masses of explanatory posts in the style "sorry, I typed "Jack" in my post above, but it was actually Jill that I meant".)

I think that, editing should absolutely be allowed - although "panic edits" should be disencouraged, and I'm rather sure that those will radically diminish anyway after this site calms down again.

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WampusCat
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 1:05 pm
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To me, editing is absolutely necessary to effective communication. (But then, I'm an editor and therefore biased.) I always try to think through a post before hitting Submit, but if something slips by -- whether typo or unclear sentence -- I insist on the right to correct it.

I've only deleted a post once, and that was because I mistakenly posted in a Bike Racks discussion that didn't concern me. Even then, I would have left the post if it added anything to the discussion.

Can't we just rely on the good sense of our members?

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Alatar
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 1:49 pm
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I'd just like to point out that I always Preview my posts and re-read them before hitting Submit. That's what the Preview button is for! Of course there are always missed typos, but edits are few and far between if you make a habit of doing a Preview before a Submit.

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 2:31 pm
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Alatar--

But that takes another ten whole seconds! :D

Idylle--

Is it important to be able to reconstruct things in our context? Sometimes, yes, certainly. Is it important enough to impose limits on people's ability to express themselves? Dicier question.

If I looked on our enterprise here as an intentional narrative, historical or fictive, I would be more inclined to limit self-editing. But for me that is a leap I can't quite make, not at this time anyway, not in general usage. I could see some forums where making people preview their stuff instead of allowing edits or deletions after the fact might be appropriate: The Jury Room certainly comes to mind. Maybe even the Bike Racks--slowing people's responses down there probably couldn't hurt, and there are mechanisms for closing those threads off when they have accomplished their purpose.

I would be less interested in applying those limits to forums where the posts are more conversational, if not lighter. It strikes me that B-room threads are in a gray area here, since some are official and others informal, some contentious and others rancor-free.

I may have missed it, but does phpbber even support no-edit options? Or is all of this moot until and unless we move?


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Fixer
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 3:00 pm
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When I want to reply to someone's posts and they may change them to alter what I am replying to, I make it a point of quoting their post. By quoting the post you not only specify which part of their post you are replying to, you also prevent them from changing what you are replying to in the event they wish to do so later for their own reasons. In this manner a bit of clarity is maintained and proper historical recordkeeping is maintained. There is nothing that prevents alteration of a quote except the fact that the original quote would specify if the owner edited it and when (and noticing timestamps as to who editted/replied last to determine order).

I would also like to point out that if the ability to edit a post was not present here, I would be unable to maintain the pictures thread in an organized and uncomplicated manner without being a Ranger.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 3:09 pm
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Yes, Ax, editing can be turned off on an individual, group, or forum basis.

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 3:18 pm
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OK then. I could support a charter amendment that would make the following forums "Forums of Record" with limited edit rights:

Jury Room
Bike Racks
Michel Delving
the ranger admin forum

Edit to add:

Threads of historical import
Archives

If there were a way of governing edits involving user groups for voting/vote discussion threads in the B-room, I could go for that too.


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Alatar
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 3:23 pm
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It's worth considering! I can see the benefits, particularly since people will be far less likely to wade into a discussion with guns blazing if they know there's no backtracking.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 3:24 pm
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No. Way!

Sorry, Ax, but this idea is just totally unacceptable.

Btw, re forums where you can't edit, I've seen one or two, didn't make more than a handful of posts there, because knowing that once you hit submit you can't even go back to change a typo just sucks.

Edit: what Fixer said! If you quote someone, it doesn't matter if they change their posts afterwards.
I don't always quote because it looks so official, not like a conversation, but when it's serious business, I'd always use a formal quote when arguing a point.

Edit the second ( :P ): after editing this I realised that if editing weren't possible I'd have had to make another post for my addition.
And a third to say what I'm typing now.
Most of the time I edit it's to correct typos, add a smiley, change the layout, or add something, so I'm not making several posts in a row.
Not being able to edit sucks big time.

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 3:32 pm
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As Alatar notes, hobby, there's always the Preview button. Which I am guilty of not using nearly as much as I should, to be honest.


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