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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 3:17 pm
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I agree with Prim. :wave:

Agreeing with Prim is so enjoyable.



Fixer, I'm not a regular participant in ToE, but I did acquaint myself with the forum. It is a community within our larger community, where people talk frankly and very personally about sex-related topics. The reason it is closed to new members is because the personal nature of the conversation involves a greater than normal degree of vulnerability for the participants and thus requires a greater degree of trust between them.

It isn't like a closet we never open, it is like a special room in the house that new friends don't enter until they have become part of the family.


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Fixer
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 3:39 pm
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Cerin wrote:
It isn't like a closet we never open, it is like a special room in the house that new friends don't enter until they have become part of the family.
*sigh*

I said, "To me." "We" is not "me".

As a new user, I am representing what ToE is to me. This may or may not be representative of other new members, and I am hoping that perhaps some of them will pipe up and say what ToE is to them so as to make clear what WE (non-ToE members) think of it. Those who have access to it directly or through intermediaries can make an informed decision on it. Those of us ignorant of its inner dialogue only have rumors, supposition, and guesses (which may or may not be correct).

To restate, expand upon, and emphasize for clarity:
If b77 is like a house, and the users are the family who lives in the house, to me ToE is a door that people go into, come out of, and I only hear whispers about what goes on in there.

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 3:47 pm
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I understand, Fixer. I was simply trying to give you 'a better understanding of what the group is' based on my own impressions.


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Fixer
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 3:57 pm
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So, to you, it is a trust group?

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 4:02 pm
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As I understand it based on what active participants have explained, yes.


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Estel
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 6:24 pm
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Very definitely a trust group


Think of the 20 questions we play sometimes in chat Fixer. Now imagine that game and the answers having a permanent home that doesn't disappear when you close the window. Now imagine that people who were't in the chat can read it. Would you want that group to include everyone and anyone? Or would you want to have safeguards around who that group can include?

At this point, the safeguards are 3 months membership and 100 posts. Many members of the ToE would like the additional safeguard of the people who are already have access being able to say no in the rare case of there being someone who they feel can absolutely in no way be trusted with the information posted.


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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 6:43 pm
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Much of the reason for its existance was many people on this board not wanting to see discussions pertaining to sex. ToE was created out of respect for those who didn't want to be involved with those discussions. (I could go on more about the further segregation and confinements put on ToE, not by the people in ToE really, but that would be an unhelpful osgiliation ;)) Many people wanted it to be separate and out of the way. Since it was somewhat separate and involved a certain group of people, they were able to become comfortable with each other and the forum evolved into the descriptions you have heard from Estel and others.

ToE was created out of a need for others to safeguard themselves, children, and b77's liability. I don't think it's unreasonable for the members of ToE to now ask to be able to safeguard themselves.

Not sure if this post made sense. I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. :scratch:

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Estel
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 6:51 pm
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Erunáme wrote:

ToE was created out of a need for others to safeguard themselves, children, and b77's liability. I don't think it's unreasonable for the members of ToE to now ask to be able to safeguard themselves.

PERFECT way to put it!!! I've been trying to think of a way to say exactly that for weeks now, and you've said exactly what I was thinking!

:love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:


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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 6:55 pm
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I didn't come up with it though. I can't take the credit. ;) But yes, it is a very good way of thinking about it.

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 7:05 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
I could go on more about the further segregation and confinements put on ToE, not by the people in ToE really
Well, I would be interested in hearing about it. You could PM me or start a different thread if you'd rather not go into it here.

:)


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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 7:13 pm
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Hi Cerin - I missed you, too! :hug:

Thanks for the heads up on member discussion in here! :)

For general information of anyone interested, here are the previous discussions and votes on this subject:

This is the one where we first wondered whether there are legal issues at all, but towards the end the discussion we are having right now first comes up:
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... um=board77

This is the Charter discussion on the subject:
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... um=board77

As that didn't yield a clear result, a new, general discussion was started:
http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/viewtopic. ... um=board77

This thread and vote was in Business, IIRC. The fact that the current ToE eligibility clause was not the result of a Charter committee vote but of a general discussion and vote was the main reason I took this issue as indeed a re-opening of previous Binding Vote.

Interestingly, a veto option was never part of any ballot, but the sponsor option was clearly voted down.

I haven't had time yet to read the old threads carefully enough to find whether a veto-option was ever taken into consideration before.

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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 7:25 pm
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As someone who pushed a revote on the wilko thread, I hardly think it's fair for you to be questioning this vote truehobbit.

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Estel
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 7:30 pm
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Indeed


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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 7:36 pm
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The veto option never made it to a ballot. There was initial discussion of a kind of veto mechanism, but too many ToE users thought it smacked of the Invite process.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 7:54 pm
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A comment on Eru's and Estel's remarks: I think it quite good if I now look out, in a perfectly reasonable manner, I think, for correct procedure.

This is understandably, I should think, especially the case when I see the exact same people who responded in the most insulting manner to my own previous suggestion to re-discuss a subject, now trying to push a re-discussion not only without least regard to the rules they so fervently supported when the subject for rediscussion was less to their liking, but even getting angry when reminded to even think whether there might be rules to hinder them getting their will.

In short: I got called names no end for my trying to raise an issue, and you guys were fine with it.
Now I remind people there's a chance they are disregarding the same rules they called me names for supposedly breaking - that's reprehensible how, pray?

You are right, it is a similar situation, Eru: if it was wrong (to some people) in my case, I don't see how it can be right (to the same people) now.
In my case, there was a thorough discussion about it. At no time did I resent having the rules about re-votes pointed out to me and the discussion and decision on whether my point was votable at all take place.

LOL, there are some things here I really didn't miss.



Ax, thanks for the info - yes, that's what I was remembering, too.

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Fixer
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 8:08 pm
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Well, that information does settle my mind on whether or not to request membership when the time comes.

Estel, I have been in enough chats to know that people can keep chat logs and have used them when they get mad enough. I only share deeply personal information with people I would trust with my heart, and that group of people is exceptionally small. In truth, only one person on this board is in that group but a few others might one day earn that much trust from me.

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Estel
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 8:26 pm
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Edited cause it's not going to make a difference anyway. In fact will probably just make things worse

______________________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________



Fixer - my point was, for the people in the ToE, they are already at that trust level.

Last edited by Estel on Thu 15 Sep , 2005 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 8:32 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
As someone who pushed a revote on the wilko thread, I hardly think it's fair for you to be questioning this vote truehobbit.
It's not only fair, it's incumbent on any member to speak up if they think (mistakenly or otherwise) that the by-laws are being violated.

I also found it very interesting that some of the people who championed the importance of following the rules when they didn't care about the feelings of the people involved and publicly beat their breast at the prospect of those inviolable rules being breached and thus the lofty ideals of the board be sullied, now wax so indignant and self-righteous at the slightest suggestion that the rules should be even minimally respected when the feelings of the people they care about are involved.

We would all do well to stick to the issues, and stop making judgments about others SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH US ABOUT A CERTAIN ISSUE.

And yes, I will damned well raise my voice.

Axordil wrote:
There was initial discussion of a kind of veto mechanism, but too many ToE users thought it smacked of the Invite process.
Indeed.


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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 8:33 pm
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th: so you're going to give some people a hard time because they gave you a hard time? :scratch: Just wondering...

I don't agree that there has be a disregard for the rules. And I don't see people having a problem with you wanting to make sure the correct procedure is followed. That of course is fair. What I do see is you possibly having a problem with this revote because of some of the people involved or because you don't care about the issue...just my perception.

All I'm asking for is a little understanding (especially as there are other people than the ones you seem to have a problem with that this issue is important to). Also, if someone has treated you badly in the past, how does returning that treatment gain anything?

edit: Please stop yelling Cerin.

edit #2: You've totally misinterpreted my statement. I hope this post clears it up for you.

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http://wanderingthroughmiddleearth.blogspot.com/


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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 15 Sep , 2005 8:47 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Much of this thread recently reminds me of the Peoples Front of Judea in Life Of Brian.

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