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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep , 2005 7:56 pm 
of Vinyamar
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I am hereby requesting 5 to 11 volunteers for the committee to discuss Access to ToE. One has to be one of the members who proposed the amendment, one a current Ranger, and one a former Ranger. The Mayor and a Loremaster are also needed.

I will participate as the current Ranger.

Alatar (Current Ranger)
Axordil
Estel
Nin (Former Ranger)
Cerin
Tosh
Voronwe (Loremaster)
Prim/Eru (Mayor)

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Last edited by Alatar on Thu 15 Sep , 2005 3:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep , 2005 7:58 pm 
Living in hope
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Eru will be Mayor in a few hours, so that's covered.

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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep , 2005 8:22 pm 

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I suppose I'm the loremaster. :)

Unfortunately, Prim, Eru doesn't become the Mayor for another 10 days. From Article 4:

Quote:
¶4: Elections

Elections will be held once a year according to the following schedule:

• On July 20, the current Mayor will post an announcement that the nomination period will begin in 30 days.
• On August 19, a 10 day nomination period will begin, extending through August 28.
• When the nomination period concludes, an election committee will be convened and a ten day voting period will begin on September 3.
• The voting will conclude on September 12.
• The new Mayor will be inaugurated on September 22.


So I'm afraid you're it until then, unless it goes back to Jn in the meantime.


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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep , 2005 8:24 pm 
Living in hope
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Gack! I thought "transition period" meant I could duck out and hand off to Eru.

I'll keep going, then, of course. It's not a problem until the 22nd itself. I guess I'll need to keep my ToE privileges until then.

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PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep , 2005 9:16 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Sure fine, I guess I had better.

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 2:19 am 
One of the Bronte Sisters
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I am not volunteering for the committee but I'm thinking that if Prim needs to hand off the acting Mayor position, there's no reason why Eru can't take it and be acting Mayor until her inauguration as actual Mayor.

It's not like we have a lame :Duck: that won't give up the office. ;)

Jn

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 2:52 am 
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
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You wouldn't want to just be an extra body would you Prim? You could be the mayor until the 22nd, I could be the former ranger, then on the 22nd we switch the titles. I wouldn't think you'd really need to do anything. Estel has done the majority of the work on the wording.

To make things clear, this ammendent doesn't have to do anything with age. (that's just a general statement...not talking to anyone in particular ;))

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 3:29 am 
Living in hope
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Sure, Eru, that's fine, unless you want to switch titles right now. Jn has the right of it—I'm no more legit as acting Mayor than you would be. Less, since you've actually really gotten elected and all.

I am going to be off the boards for a few days from the 22nd on, though, so maybe I shouldn't be on the committee at all. :scratch:

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 3:45 am 
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Could someone give a brief synopsis of the issues and the proposed amendment?


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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 5:07 am 
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
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I'm not the person to do this, but I suppose I could try.

The issue is who gets into ToE. The forum relies on posters feeling comfortable and there could be a poster who would threaten that...people wouldn't want to keep their posts up. So the members do want to have the option to be able to veto a poster if it seems the poster's presence would threaten the viability of the forum.

Estel wrote up a draft ballot, but I'm not sure if I should post it or not. Really I think she should...and of course that she should be on the committee.

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 5:33 am 
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I'll be on the committee, but I would like to get overall approval by ToE posters before doing something like posting it here - don't want to jump the gun :)

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 6:25 am 
Per aspera ad astra
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I can join the comittee as former ranger, if ToE posters agree on it.

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 4:01 pm 
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Thank you, Eru. I hope the amendment would include a requirement that there be some kind of explanation given to the person who is rejected.


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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 4:11 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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There is no such provision Cerin, as there is no provision for discussion AT ALL of the reasons why people are uncomfortable. Even the vote wouldn't be a Yes or No vote, but only a "Do I want to veto this person's application" so that it doesn't become a popularity contest.

The reason behind this is to avoid the kind of discussions that took place on the Invite threads, as the situation here is purely subjective (wheras there it was more of a mishmash, to be honest): people are either comfortable with someone, or not, as a rule.

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 4:18 pm 
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
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I suppose the explanation for a rejection would be obvious: posters wouldn't feel comfortable enough to post around that poster. That would be the only reason someone was denied access.

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 4:39 pm 
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Erunáme wrote:
I suppose the explanation for a rejection would be obvious: posters wouldn't feel comfortable enough to post around that poster.

Yes, but why are they uncomfortable? Put yourself in that place, wouldn't it torture you, wondering what idea people had about you that made them think they would be uncomfortable with you?

I think this would be just devastating to the person rejected. It differs from the invitation threads because the invitations threads were just a temporary and eventually almost universally acknowledged to be yucky, interim solution.

It seems to me this also goes against our espoused principle of equality. People already members of ToE (that is obviously, people who were original members of this board) are being given a different status and a different amount of power than people who weren't, in an attempt to protect something they had when the board was closed. If everyone is to be treated equally on this board, then obviously everyone has to be given the same opportunity to participate.

I'm not making a case against this idea at this point (just sharing things that strike me), but I hope that all the implications of this proposal will be examined, including the ways in which it goes against our stated principles, and including the personal ramifications for persons who might be rejected without explanation.


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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 4:48 pm 
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I would suggest that since the proposal would give so much power to current members of ToE over the disposition of another person's experience on this board, the proposal should include the provision that anyone voting against someone being included on ToE is required to send them a PM explaining their vote and taking personal responsibility for the determinative effect they are having on another poster's experience.

Edit

This would address the concern you expressed, Ax, over public discussion of other people selon the invitation threads.


Last edited by Cerin on Tue 13 Sep , 2005 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 4:48 pm 
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
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Cerin wrote:
Yes, but why are they uncomfortable?


Because they don't trust the person. Trust is what keeps the forum going.

Quote:
People already members of ToE (that is obviously, people who were original members of this board) are being given a different status and a different amount of power than people who weren't, in an attempt to protect something they had when the board was closed.


ToE has the most sensitive material in it. Some people have opened up like they never have before and wouldn't have ever done so in a public forum. ToE does need some extra protection. It doesn't matter who gets in the Turf. People will continue to post and have a good time. It does matter who gets into ToE. There are posters that could obliterate the forum by their presence. Already ToE posters have begun to delete their posts out of concern because they do not want certain people reading their heartfelt posts. Letting anyone and everyone in to ToE isn't treating ToE with equality as it could mean the end of the forum.

Quote:
If everyone is to be treated equally on this board, then obviously everyone has to be given the same opportunity to participate.


Doing so would mean the death of the forum.

The points you brought up have been discussed in the committee thread in ToE. The posters are aware of this, not all are entirely comfortable with restricting people, but I believe do see the need if ToE is to continue.

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http://wanderingthroughmiddleearth.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 5:00 pm 
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Quote:
If everyone is to be treated equally on this board, then obviously everyone has to be given the same opportunity to participate.




Yes, and if 6 active members of the ToE choose to delete every single one of the posts and have their permissions removed from that forum because of one poster getting in, are they being given the same opportunity to participate?

We have an extremly strong majority of the ToE posters who want this protection in place. It is not matter of being treated equally. It is people who have posted the most personal of personal posts, and want to have the ability to protect themselves against the rare poster who would use that information maliciously.

There is only one poster on this board that would cause me to want to veto-vote. I can safely say that this is not an option that would be used often, but it should be there. It is NOT some sort of clique kind of thing - this is the presevation of the forum. There are not that many active posters in there, and if one new poster causes 6 to leave, then the forum will pretty much die.

Everyone has an equal chance of getting in, but everyone should have an equal chance of STAYING in the forum as well.

The veto-vote would not be permanent. The poster would have the option of reapplying for entry to the ToE after a certain amount of time and posts.


Trust me Cerin, your argument has been hashed and rehashed ten times over in the forum itself. The arguments have been made ten times over. The fact is, we have a right to call for an amendment, and we are going to. We would more than appreciate your help, if you wish to join the committee. What this is basically going to come down to, is a vote. The committee being set up, the amendment is being set up - if it doesn't pass, then the ToE members will have to live with it. If it does pass vote, then the rest of the board will have to live with it.

But lets get to work, get the amendment created, and see what happens when it comes down to a vote.

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Last edited by Estel on Tue 13 Sep , 2005 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep , 2005 5:01 pm 
Thanks to Holby

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Erunáme wrote:
Because they don't trust the person. Trust is what keeps the forum going.

I'm not trying to be infantile, but why don't they trust the person? If someone told you they didn't trust you, wouldn't you want to know why?


Quote:
It does matter who gets into ToE. There are posters that could obliterate the forum by their presence. Already ToE posters have begun to delete their posts out of concern because they do not want certain people reading their heartfelt posts. Letting anyone and everyone in to ToE isn't treating ToE with equality as it could mean the end of the forum.

So what you're saying is, you do want ToE to be exempted from one of the governing principles of b77. That strikes me as a very strong indication that ToE should be taken off of b77 and put onto another server (something I had seen mentioned in the other thread). It would make a mockery of our 'mission statement' and key principles. It would be a way of saying, there are some cases (at least one) in which our principle of equality cannot be applied, because we value the comfort of some of our original members over the rights of new members, or because we value this one forum at the expense of the integrity of the board as a whole.


Quote:
Doing so would mean the death of the forum.

And not doing so would mean the death of b77 as it is represented in the Charter.


It seems pretty clear cut to me that if the continued existence of ToE is contingent upon violating our mission statement and key principles, then ToE belongs elsewhere. It seems almost an inevitable (and extremely unfortunate) result of the board starting private and becoming public.


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