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PostPosted: Sat 24 Sep , 2005 7:27 pm 
A green apple painted red
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Considering that, I was thinking, what about penalties for ToEers who abuse the veto system? Lets say a poster is sending in objections to every poster who requests access. I would consider this abuse.


This got me thinking back to the discussions on opening the board, and I think it's a valid point.

If there is a veto in ToE, and some of the members are truly uncomfortable with adding any new posters to the group... yes, a person could potentially find objections against every candidate. Honestly, I don't have any specific names in mind and I really am not pointing my mouse at anybody in particular. But theoretically, if the only threshold is the personal level of comfort, a small group of ToErs could keep the forum private for the current group unless some sort of accountability is established.

Not that it concerns me personally.

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PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep , 2005 8:13 pm 
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The thing is Cerin I think it is not possible to have a system that can't be abused. If you make it so it can't be abused, that could entail that it can't be uselful. Why use it if it dosen't work? I would prefer something that works and build penalties for abuse in. At least that way it works. Cerin I think you have understood me on my proposal. :)

Frelga to be very honest I can't imagine anyone finding an objection with every member of ToE I see that non-ToEers seriously have misunderstood the whole point of this amendment.. if someone finds an objection with 5 or 6 people I would be totally stunned. THis amendment is only supposed to be used on rare occaisions. This amendment will not be a rule that applies to everyone. It is more an emergency clause or something.

ETA in adition, I was thinking the terms some people have been using to determine whether to use this amedment has been incorrect. I think we should state or determine when this amendment should be used. We need to define those conditions. For me and I think many other people, it is not even really about comfort level, since there are people who are not buddy buddy yet still post about initmate details there. To me, the definition on when to use this amendment is when a poster is concerned that a new applicant is a danger. Not, that a poster feels uncomfortable. I think many people were using the term uncomfortable out of polliteness. What the real concern is, is that someone is a danger and that they will not respect the rules of ToE and use what is gleaned there to harm a person. That is what this is truly about. Protecting old and new postsers from harm.
But it seems everyone is ignoring that and saying it looks like invites when it isn't.

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PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep , 2005 10:29 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Wilma:

The late, unlamented polls suggested that a lot of people agree with you, vis-a-vis danger and comfort and wording. And I think the committee is taking that into account.

When the amendment is up for review by the board, please feel free to remind us. :)

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PostPosted: Sun 25 Sep , 2005 11:44 pm 
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Thanks!!!! I will work on that when the time comes. :)

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Sep , 2005 6:38 pm 

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Wilma wrote:
Snowdog I am sorry for saying your name that was wrong of me. I usually do not like the naming of names and avoid it. In fact I think I even apologized for mentioning your name. Sometimes I say things in such a roundabout way that people almost demand I say a name, since they are getting so frustrated with me. (In the past.)
Worry not about it. Its alright with me. In fact, I prefer names being mentioned. It puts everything out in the open as it should be. I know some prefer the email/PM/IM/private forum/telephone/RL talk to discuss other folk, so I appreciate the straightforward honesty. It was clearly expressed a couple months ago in the bikeracks thread that the ToE issue would have to be re-visited.

I think the opinions expressed on both sides of the ToE issue in the various threads have shown the conundrum of having closed forums on an open board.


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Sep , 2005 10:22 pm 
Thanks to Holby

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The two amendment proposals that the committee has come up with, and from which the committee will choose one to bring to the membership for ratification are now posted in the first post of the Final Ballot thread in the Jury Room:

Amendment proposals

I guess this would be the time for members to take a look at them and voice your support for one or the other (or neither).


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Sep , 2005 10:52 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Especially as the Charter is quite clear that we have to take a yes/no vote on such things, which means we have to pick one for official consideration.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2005 2:12 pm 
* trolley dodger *
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Cerin wrote:
I guess this would be the time for members to take a look at them and voice your support for one or the other (or neither).


So this means that the general membership will have to vote yes or no on either the poll or the obections model? :scratch: We won't be voting A. Whether we want restricitions placed at all and B. Which model we prefer?

I that case, I support the "objections model". :(


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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2005 2:36 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Tinsel--
Experience has taught us that anything other than a straight poll for an amendment, which requires a 2/3 majority to enact, is a monumental pain in the ass.

The choice will be:

A) Add this to the Charter
B) Do not add this to the Charter

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2005 2:40 pm 
* trolley dodger *
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Axordil wrote:
Tinsel--
Experience has taught us that anything other than a straight poll for an amendment, which requires a 2/3 majority to enact, is a monumental pain in the ass.

The choice will be:

A) Add this to the Charter
B) Do not add this to the Charter


Thanks for clearing that up, Ax.

Once more then, I support the objections model (ie. no poll, PMed objections only). :)


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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2005 2:43 pm 

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Actually, I think technically the choice will be between "make these additions and changes to the Charter" or don't. ;)


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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2005 2:48 pm 
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:P
Damn Loremasters, think they know everything. :D

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2005 3:10 pm 
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I was for the objections model but I think that requiring only 5 objections is quite low.

The new poll model is an improvement with the objections being posted anonymously so people can evaluate them objectively. But I think 12 is kind of low for a poll too. Comparatively better than 5 in the other model though.

:neutral:

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2005 3:17 pm 
of Vinyamar
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fissh, you must consider the fact that ther are only about 30 active posters in ToE. Probably less. Anything more than 12 would likely never be reached.

Just a final reminder. This is not likely to ever happen. It may never be used. If it does, if it comes to the point where people feel strongly enough about keeping out someone who is a danger to the community, what good does it do to make it impossible to achieve?

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2005 3:32 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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The other thing to remember is that these aren't designed to be VOTES, in the sense of seeking a majority approval. These are designed to measure a level of opposition to someone such that their entering would cause a significant number of other people to LEAVE.

There are few forums that would remain recognizable if 20 or 25% of their more active people left en masse.

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep , 2005 10:04 am 
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I support the poll model. It prevents power or control from being concentrated with one or 2 people. I have some questions but I do not have much time right now. I think 12 is too high for votes in ToE right now. 10 would be good.

The active posting membership for ToE is extremely low!!!!!!!!!

Also, for the serious RL obection, what if someone had an incident with said poster and only one person objected in that sense rather then 2? Also if one person went through some incident and told their friends about it at the time, does the person who went through the incident and a friend (who knows) about the serious issue count as 2 objectors? (I think everyone knows how I feel about too few people jugding the validity of something).

For example the jerk that I met, I never told anyone here about that incident. If I had told someone about it here and we both objected to this guy would that count as valid 2 objections? I did tell some other people about it the incident though.

I hope TheMary will post what she posted in the discussion in Turf. Hopefully it will explain the reason for this whole thing since I still feel that some people are making a knee jerk reaction and thinking something is similar to invites, or that we are trying to preserve the closed nature of the board in the past. It is not either of these things. For many people invites was horrific I guess. *shrugs*

Also, I would like to possibly ask for some time before this goes to vote for the public or a proper explanation of the purpose of this amendment since I think many people have misunderstood the point of this due to all those misleading polls in turf. I am sorry but they were very misleading I felt, and may colour someones opinion on an issue they do have not fully read about.

From what I read in turf people seem to have the wrong idea about this whole thing. :(

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep , 2005 12:47 pm 

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Quote:
Also, I would like to possibly ask for some time before this goes to vote for the public


Wilma, there will be as always a ten day discussion period before it goes to a vote once the committee completes its work (which it is not close to doing). That should be plenty of time. This issue has already dragged on way, way too long, IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep , 2005 2:08 pm 
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Wilma:

In the general case, there is no judgment of objections planned beyond purely formal grounds: is this an objection related to the petitioner's behavior? Thus, if you tell friends, and they object on your behalf, those are still generic objections, which would be listed in redacted form in the thread and which would be the focus of the polling.

As for the RL exceptional clause: the person affected and one actual witness are the bottom line, yes. As harsh as it may sound, anything less stringent is open to "he said, she said" situations, and would basically mean the word of any given person in ToE was worth more than the word of any given person not in ToE. That, I believe, is unaccepatable to the majority of B77 membership. It is certainly unacceptable to me.

Add: 12 was the most popular number in the poll I put out, which resulted in a very nice bell curve in the brief time it was out there. Any less and I think we will lose votes.

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep , 2005 2:17 pm 
Thanks to Holby

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fisssh, we had a lengthy discussion in committee surrounding the question of the threshold for denial.

Our reasoning was that the threshold had to be high if no explanations were required, and could be low if explanations were required, they were made privately and individually (thus eliminating the bandwagon effect), AND there was a high standard for objections. The standard in model B ('have reason to believe the petitioner poses a danger to the community') is the highest of the three that were considered.

Here is a link to the discussion in committee on the low threshold that goes on for a couple of pages and here is a link to comments in this thread supporting the idea of a threshold of 5 with explanations and a high standard if you just follow Prim's posts for a couple of pages, it was she who was commenting on this question

I hope this will alleviate your concerns somewhat. As to the number 12 for the poll model, that is preceded by people who have reason to object emailing their explanations to admin. acct., so it is really a sort of double threshold.


Wilma wrote:
Also if one person went through some incident and told their friends about it at the time, does the person who went through the incident and a friend (who knows) about the serious issue count as 2 objectors?

We discussed this, and it was felt that if a friend of someone knew about an upsetting incident their friend had had with the petitioner, that would be a legitimate objection (this as opposed to unsubstantiated rumors).

As for requiring two objections before the process kicks in, we did not feel that a poll should be initiated on the basis of a single objection. As always, we're trying to find a balance between the interests of ToE members and the right of petitioning members to be treated fairly.

Quote:
Hopefully it will explain the reason for this whole thing since I still feel that some people are making a knee jerk reaction and thinking something is similar to invites, or that we are trying to preserve the closed nature of the board in the past.

I think you'll have to accept that there is and will continue to be a variety of perspectives on this issue. That is the way it looks to some people -- on the closed board, people were kept out by others objecting to their inclusion. That is what ToE members will be doing here, too.

My hope is that the discussion has promoted understanding of why this is felt by some to be necessary and so important for the survival of the forum.


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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep , 2005 8:30 pm 
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Cerin, thanks for the link to the current state of the ballot! :)


Seeing that I'm absolutely opposed to punishing anyone before the crime has been committed, I find it hard to give a preference for any of these models, but will say that they both are more reasonable than I had hoped for. :)

That said, I think the first option is slightly preferable, as it is more in keeping with the transparency ideals of this board.
Even though, in the second option, five objections is quite a bit to collect, the process still is too much behind the scenes.
The first, I suppose, would allow for a discussion to go on in ToE? (Rather than just the vote.)

Still, I would wish for some provisions to enable the petitioner to defend him-/herself (if they are still interested in that after hearing about their possible rejection), especially in case the second option is chosen - and he or she should definitely know his or her accusers!

Also: is the decision up to a single Ranger? I think the decision on the validity of the objections (again, especially in case of the second option) should be made by at least a majority of Rangers.

Lastly, this on the whole isn't entirely clear to me:

Quote:
If a Ranger receives a communication that a ToE member has had a RL experience of a seriously harmful nature with the petitioner, the veracity of which is supported by at least one other ToE member, the Ranger at their discretion may announce in the petitioner's thread in ToE that such a complaint has been brought and the petitioner has summarily been denied access. The petitioner will be informed that a serious complaint has been lodged and their access denied, and the thread will then be locked and deleted. If it is subsequently determined in a hearing that the accusation was false, the accusing member will be permanently banned.

If there is such a serious case, there should be a more detailed process than just two statements and one Ranger judging the veracity of those!
A hearing is mentioned in the end - does it mean that in case of such an accusation a hearing is obligatory? I think it would be a good idea if it were!
I like the provision to prevent spurious accusations, though!

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