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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:03 pm
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Wilma, this is my request for feedback on your suggestions in the Jury Room. Could you please read through this and see if I understood you correctly? Thanks!

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Now I need feedback on the points Wilma raised.

She seemed to think that the poll options give the impression that multiple petitioners will be considered and objected to as a group? Do others see this represented on the ballot? If so, can you suggest a solution (because I don't see it)?

It was Wilma's suggestion that gave rise to the Discretionary exception for extraordinary circumstances option. Today she suggested that she had wanted that model to apply to all kinds of objections.

In other words, I believe she is saying she would like an option whereby, when objections are received, a Ranger will indicate that in the thread. I believe we already have this option (Question 19 option A) on the ballot. Further, I think she may be asking for an option that the Ranger indicate what type of objection has been received. This I don't see as feasible.


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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:10 pm
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Tinsel_the_Elf wrote:
I'm getting really tired of everyone characterizing Snowdog as a malicious person whose sole purpose in coming to Board77 was to get into the ToE forum and harm people.
Let's clear this up a bit. Some people are very wary of him because of what they saw happen on TORC. What they are doing now is trying to prevent the same from happening again. Noone here has ever said they though his sole purpose was to get into ToE. Your characterization of the people trying to protect themselves is a bit silly. People have noticed a danger (reasonably) and are trying to protect themselves. Just wanted to clear this up.

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Tinsel_the_Elf
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:18 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
Tinsel_the_Elf wrote:
I'm getting really tired of everyone characterizing Snowdog as a malicious person whose sole purpose in coming to Board77 was to get into the ToE forum and harm people.
Let's clear this up a bit. Some people are very wary of him because of what they saw happen on TORC. What they are doing now is trying to prevent the same from happening again. Noone here has ever said they though his sole purpose was to get into ToE. Your characterization of the people trying to protect themselves is a bit silly. People have noticed a danger (reasonably) and are trying to protect themselves. Just wanted to clear this up.
Eru, I respectfully disagree. :) But I don't think that me dredging up quotes is going to help, because it would only be a further osgiliation of this thread (for which I take responsibility).

Edit: The statement which Eru quotes above was posted in the heat of the moment. I stand by it, but I regret and apologize for the tone in which it was written.

Last edited by Tinsel_the_Elf on Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:22 pm
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I would like to see a quote of someone saying his sole purpose was to come here and get into ToE because I honestly can't remember anyone saying that. They know of his past and are afraid of him. That's what I've heard.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:24 pm
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Wow. I've just saw there are now seven polls up regarding ToE. I'm all for trying to see what the membership thinks, but I think this may have gone overboard and I'm worried people are going to be burned out regarding this issue. It also makes me worry about the quorum being reached. Please, no more polls.

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Alatar
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:58 pm
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Cerin wrote:
Alatar, I think it is clear that people want all people making objections to have to explain those objections. Is this what you are proposing? In that case, what is the point of the poll?
Unfortunately Cerin I believe you are projecting your own opinions onto these statements. I would instead say:

It is clear that some people want all people making objections to have to explain those objections.

It is clear that some people want some people making objections to have to explain those objections.

It is clear that some people want no people making objections to have to explain those objections.
Cerin wrote:
If you are proposing that some people object by email and some vote in a poll, that is Estel's compromise proposal and doesn't satisfy the desire that everyone objecting state why.
However it does satisfy the basic desire for some accountability without complete transparency that others desire
Cerin wrote:
It seems as I feared, that the 'poll' poll has clouded the issues that might have been clarified by the other polls.
Again, I feel that the poll options were not the ones I would have chosen. It might have been better to discuss what we would ask in the polls on committee because any poll written by an individual will always be skewed towards the matters that interest them.


Let me make this clear Cerin. I am not suggesting for one second that you are deliberately skewing the ballots the way you want them to go, however I do believe that your own beliefs are making a strong impression. No offense intended.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:27 pm
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Alatar:

Actually, it is clear that 31 out of 46 people who responded to the poll by 10 this morning wanted explanations, and wanted them from ToE members. Whether or not they expect a 1:1 ratio is beyond the scope of the poll. :roll:

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:35 pm
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Yes, Alatar, my poll questions reflected what I thought needed clarification. I had mused out loud in the Jury Room thread that perhaps we were in the mess we were in because I should have asked two questions of the committee (two of the poll questions) instead of approaching the ballot the way I had. Estel then said, I think you should ask those two questions right now of the membership in a poll, and add a third (the standard question). So that's what I did.

Yes, I should have waited and we could have discussed it amongst ourselves and decided what poll questions to ask. I apologize for my hasty action.

I still believe those are the three questions we needed clarity on, and I believe we would have had clarity on them had not Estel's poll question been put into the mix.

As far as I'm concerned, the clearest question and clearest answer has been on explanations.

Do you favor a system that requires explanations from ToE members?

The answer 'yes' is 2 to 1.

It didn't say, 'Do you favor a system that requires explanations from some ToE members and not from others. To me, that is reading into the question, and there is no reason to think that members answering that poll were thinking in terms of only some ToE members giving explanations.

As far as Estel's poll question, I think it is very misleading and confusing (not deliberately so!) Of course ToE members should have the right to make a poll. Why on earth not. Why would anyone not involved in these discussions and not aware of the isssues think otherwise?

To ask someone if they think polls should be allowed was essentially asking them if they supported a system that allowed people to make objections without explaining themselves. And that question had already been asked.

I think its possible to look at my group of questions and get a consistent picture, it's possible to look at the answer's to Estel's question and get some ideas, but I don't think it is possible to get anything making any sense whatever by looking at my group of questions along with Estel's question. At least, that is my belief. Any hope of meaningfully clarifying the issues through these polls has been lost, as far as I'm concerned.


But Alatar, you didn't address my most pressing question. Is what you proposed the same as what Estel has proposed and what is already on the ballot? If not, can you please explain to me how it is different? I need to understand the proposals if I am to include them as options on the ballot.


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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 7:24 pm
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Please, please, please stop with the polls. No more bumping please. It's exacerbating the problem. It's making things worse. It's alienating people.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 7:31 pm
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I forsee no more polls, but I am going to bump mine at least one more time, and I'm not going to apologize for it.

Once in a while the workings of the board drift out into the public spaces, and that's how it's always going to be. Would people prefer the alternative? That decisions be made for them, behind closed doors? If so, why are they here?

Just because something doesn't interest one person, doesn't mean it isn't important to other people. In this case, it obviously is. Yes, this is taking longer than it should. But for someone to say "I'm tired of the discussion (and by the way, you should all just agree with me)" is less than helpful.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 7:39 pm
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I was about to type this in Jewel's thread in Turf, but I saw Eru's objection, and I think she's right, it belongs here.

I took it that the people in the committee wanted to gauge public opinion, so they could come up with a poll that really reflects people's ideas. And I guess in the Turf is the one place to reach most people. Hence also the bumps.
It's unconventional, but then it's a difficult process to come up with a poll here, I guess. So I don't think all the mini-polls are a bad thing.



That said, I agree completely with the "it's a messageboard - get real" view, that Jewel expressed in her new thread. :)

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 7:44 pm
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Mini polls can be good. But seven of them is too much.

I'm seriously worried about reaching a quorum whenever the amendment is put up.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 7:46 pm
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Eruname:
That would be pretty much up to the active and semiactive users of ToE. There are almost enough of them to make a quorum by themselves. If they are actually concerned, they will vote.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 8:14 pm
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Bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit.
One stickied thread containing a poll would have been sufficient. That was nothing but spam. Interested parties can easily find what they are looking for, and there is no need to paint the whole board with poll after poll.
This never happened during the convention and there is no need for it to happen now.

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Cerin
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 8:22 pm
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Apologies, then, Holby.

Perhaps due to the reception this time, this will not be tried again in the future as a way of getting some quick member input into the Jury Room.

I do agree with you that this never happened in the convention, and it needn't have happened now. I believe the reason it happened is because people are particularly anxious that some kind of amendment pass for ToE, and they wanted to get a feel for what amendment would have the best chance (rather than voting for what they personally think is the best idea, as I believe is usually the norm in committee voting.)

Or maybe I don't even understand why it was done. In any case, I offer my apologies, and it shouldn't take long for the polls to sink out of sight. I believe Alatar is going to lock them. At least, he has permission to lock the ones I created, and I hope he will do so immediately.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 8:26 pm
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Holby:

This means you'll be on the next committee, to make sure they don't do something equally as silly, correct? ;)

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Tinsel_the_Elf
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 8:26 pm
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Holbytla wrote:
Bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit.
One stickied thread containing a poll would have been sufficient. That was nothing but spam. Interested parties can easily find what they are looking for, and there is no need to paint the whole board with poll after poll.
This never happened during the convention and there is no need for it to happen now.
Holby (and everyone else who was bothered by the multiple polls), it was well-intended, and will almost certainly not be repeated. :) The threads will sink very quickly now. :) The committee members have been doing a lot of frustrating work, and gentle criticism is probably better than harsh words. You have no idea what a minefield this issue already is.

Jury Room members, I want to personally thank each one of you for the work that you're doing. :)

Tinsel (with heavy smiley and good-willness) :) :) :)


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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 8:29 pm
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Perhaps there might be a better way to go about answering all the questions. Holby has the right idea...one sticky. The next time this needs to be done, all the questions can be put in the first post and people can post their answers. Yes, I realize that's not as easy as a poll and there might not be as much feedback, but at least it wouldn't piss people off and we'd get feedback from the people who really do care.

Other than that, I agree with Tinsel. :)

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 8:41 pm
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I have had enough committee days to last me a lifetime thank you. :)
I have been through plenty of minefields and know too well the frustraions that go along with a committee members job.
And you see the reason why I am no longer on the committee. I tend to snap when I get frustrated. :)
Sorry about the harsh words, and no need to apologize. I know everyone had the best intentions.

No amount of polls will cure apathy. The people that care will follow the discussion.

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 8:42 pm
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Quote:
No amount of polls will cure apathy. The people that care will follow the discussion.
All too true. And I find that occasionally snapping in a committee can be quite productive if timed correctly. :D

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