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If denial of ToE access is done via emailing of explanations for objection, how many should be required?
3 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
5 44%  44%  [ 4 ]
8 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
10 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
fewer than 3 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
more than 10 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 9
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 3:46 pm 
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More in the continuing quest for knowledge.

For reference: there are currently around 70 B77 members with ToE access, but many of those who have access do not post there.

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 4:03 pm 
Gloriosus
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Depends on the explanations, doesn't it? And the evidence.


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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 4:38 pm 
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We're assuming all objections to be correct in form. We don't plan on reviewing evidence, because we're not detectives. There are, however, penalties proposed for demonstrably false accusations.

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 4:44 pm 
The Man who Knows his Tools
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So, we are talking about objections that are even remotely reasonable and not just 'because I want to object'?

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:01 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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We're talking about objections that have something to do with the applicant's behavior or attitude. "I don't want X in because he has facial hair" would not be accepted, but "I don't want X in because she made fun of me in a thread" or "I don't want X in because he is discourteous" would be. We would not evaluate objections for veracity, judge them on sincerity, or grade them on complexity.

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:36 pm 
Insolent Pup
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Quote:
but "I don't want X in because she made fun of me in a thread" or "I don't want X in because he is discourteous" would be.


Seriously? Those are acceptable objections? You gotta be kidding me.

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 5:47 pm 
The Man who Knows his Tools
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Quote:
but "I don't want X in because she made fun of me in a thread" or "I don't want X in because he is discourteous" would be.

Seriously? Those are acceptable objections? You gotta be kidding me.

Personal attacks and discourteous actions are in violation of the charter. They are legitimate objections under the charter, why should they not be for ToE access?

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:01 pm 
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I suppose you're right. As long as it's on-going behavior.

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:22 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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The trick is to have a standard for objections that doesn't involve someone having to judge whether the reason stated is "enough" or not. You already have a subjective opinion in the objection itself: adding a subjective opinion of that subjective opinion is heading somewhere dark and icky. Better to avoid the notion of evaluating people's reasons...and psyches...instead.

This is why the number matters: if all objections are treated as valid (so long as the formal consideration I described above is met), how many are required before we eliminate the possibility that the applicant in question is actually OK, and that they just irritated some people? Conversely, if an applicant has irritated enough people, is that not in itself grounds for denying entry into a forum that is somewhat fragile?

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:31 pm 
The Man who Knows his Tools
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I still find it funny that I will be called to vote on something I will never use, but thus is the responsibility of democracy.

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:37 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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It would be like voting on that bond issue for the woman's health clinic, then...not something you need, but you know people who would...:D

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:38 pm 

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Axordil wrote:
The trick is to have a standard for objections that doesn't involve someone having to judge whether the reason stated is "enough" or not.


I don't believe that is possible. As long as some kind of explanation is required, it is going to have to meet some other person's interpretation of whatever standard is used.


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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:41 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Quote:
As long as some kind of explanation is required, it is going to have to meet some other person's interpretation of whatever standard is used.


I think a formal consideration--it has to mention behavior or attitude--is as close to objective as can be accomplished. If we get to the point where people don't agree on whether an objection does that or not, the point is moot, because the board is already doomed.

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:50 pm 

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Quote:
Conversely, if an applicant has irritated enough people, is that not in itself grounds for denying entry into a forum that is somewhat fragile?


Then why require explanations?


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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:58 pm 
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The behavior has to be recurring or persistent, right Ax?

Even if someone has irritated enough people and we use these formal objections, that person would still have to have objections lodged against him or her, or at least that is what I figured Ax meant. Nothing definitely should be in and of itself, for consistency and all.

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Sep , 2005 6:59 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Please note that was a question, not a statement, Voronwe. It's one that may be answered yes or no, and HAS been. Certainly some people believe so, but others clearly do not, while others (myself included) believe it only with reservations...involving the number of people.

Obviously, if EVERYONE in ToE was uncomfortable with someone being there, the course of action would be as clear as if NO ONE was uncomfortable...so the tipping point must be somewhere in between 0% and 100%. Thus the poll--to see where people's personal tipping point is for each of the two major options for collecting objections, whether explained or merely selected in a poll.

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