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PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 8:35 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Location: In your wildest dreams
Ok by me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 8:52 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
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I can not accept that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 8:54 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
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What is it that you can't accept, Voronwe? Could you please be specific?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 9:18 pm 
Pure Kitsch Flavor
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Seems like both of you cannot accept what the other is saying so maybe the rest of us should just ignore you :devil:

I kid!! I kid!! :blackeye:


Seriously - a little compromise from both of you - otherwise, we'll never get this through to the membership. :help:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 9:20 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
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If what V is saying he can't accept is putting on a mandatory specified period, it seems to me that Prim was saying that wouldn't be necessary because everyone would view such behavior as abhorrent and would certainly specify a long period even if it weren't mandated.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 9:30 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 2039
This is the modified wording we talked about for the ballot, that would be consistent with the Charter:


If it is subsequently determined in a hearing that the accusation was false, the accusing member will be subject to penalties up to and including an immediate ban and always including a minimum two-year ban from the Thinking of England forum.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 9:44 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
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I can't accept something that makes this offense by definition worse then the other bannable offenses that we have delineated. I see no reason to treat someone who makes false accusations regarding a ToE petitioner differently then, say, someone who has made real life threats of violence against another member. There was a very long and extensive discussion in the constitutional convention about how to approach bans and the approach that you guys are suggesting runs completely counter to the approach that we adopted after that discussion. There was very strong opinions expressed both inside and outside the convention against having permanent bans or bans for set specific long periods of time. The compromise that we came up with was that if a person banned petitioned for reinstatement, the jury hearing that petition could set a specific time for the ban. I see no reason to approach this any differently. As I said before, someone who blatently violates this rule is not likely to get reinstated. Any more then someone who made real life threats of violence against another member.

I will not support an amendment that I feel so strongly contradicts such an important principle.

Edit: I have no problem with this language:

Quote:
If it is subsequently determined in a hearing that the accusation was false, the accusing member will be subject to penalties up to and including an immediate ban and always including a minimum two-year ban from the Thinking of England forum.


It was the language that you suggested with the automatic 10 year ban that I was objecting to.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 10:02 pm 
Not so deep as a well

Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Posts: 7358
Location: In your wildest dreams
Fine, whatever. My capacity for caring is rapidly being exceeded. If we ever have to deal with one of these, it won't matter anyway.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 10:09 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
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My capacity for caring is just kicking in. :devil:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 10:20 pm 
Not so deep as a well

Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Posts: 7358
Location: In your wildest dreams
I'm too tired to laugh. I think I will go do something comparatively fun, like pull up old carpet.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 10:25 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Posts: 5134
:kiss: (blame Philby)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 10:51 pm 
Pure Kitsch Flavor
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Location: London
Oi!! I'm the one that found that emoticon thank you very much! :rage:


;) :P

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 11:03 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 2039
Ok, so people are fine with the modified wording for the Discretionary Exception on the ballot. I will substitute it for what's currently there.

What about these other alterations to the Charter. Voronwe?

Quote:
It was suggested we add the receipt of objection provision (text in blue) to the Ranger objection provision in Article 3, ¶3 so that it would be consistent with the amendment we're working on.

If a member does have a concern or objection to a particular volunteer, these must be sent by email to the Administrator account, where they will also be forwarded to the Mayor so that the Mayor together with current Rangers can review them for merit. A Ranger will send an email acknowledgment to each person who submits an objection to let them know their objection has been received.



Quote:
We would change the text shown in red from Article 3 ¶4: Routine powers of Rangers (excerpt) to the text shown in blue

• In the Jury Room and the Archive, enable posting rights, delete illegitimate posts from Hearings, and delete threads when they are finished;
• In the Thinking of England Forum, enable posting rights when age confirmations are received;
• Lock, split, or move threads upon request of members, or when it is necessary to improve the coherence of a forum; the thread originator must be notified beforehand;

In the Thinking of England Forum, initiate announcement threads and oversee consideration periods in accordance with the instructions in Article 6, ¶3.



So is this how we should amend Article 5, ¶9 (blue)

Quote:
Offenses for which the maximum penalty for a first offense is an immediate ban
- Spamming the board with ads;
- Spamming the board with pornography;
- Hacking the board;
- Refusing to abide by the Decision of the Jury in a Hearing [maximum penalty is
mandated by Article 3];
- Threats of real life violence or other criminal acts against members [maximum
penalty is mandated by Article 3];
- Deliberately introducing a virus to members of the board.
- Falsely accusing a member of harmful RL actions in order to deny them access to the Thinking of England forum.





And finally this:

Quote:
The following provision from Article 2, section A, para 1 (Members Rights and Responsibilities) will be deleted:

(You have the right) to post in our Thiking ofEngland forum (a forum restricted to those who are 18 years of age or older) once you have met the eligibility requirements.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 11:29 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Posts: 5134
Estel, :kiss:

Cerin, I am fine with those except :roll::

Quote:
The following provision from Article 2, section A, para 1 (Members Rights and Responsibilities) will be deleted:

You have the right) to post in our Thinking of England forum (a forum restricted to those who are 18 years of age or older) once you have met the eligibility requirements.


Instead of deleting that provision, I would prefer to add some kind of appropriate language, such as (but not necessarily exactly):

Quote:
You have the right) to post in our Thinking of England forum (a forum restricted to those who are 18 years of age or older) once you have met the eligibility requirements, unless you have been denied access pursuant to Article 6 ¶ x.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 11:40 pm 
of Vinyamar
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Location: Ireland
Looks good.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 11:41 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 2039
Ok, thanks V. I thought I would add these as an addendum to the actual amendment when we present it to the membership. That way if the amendment is ratified, these changes will be ratified along with.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 11:43 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 2039
So now we just await Nin, Eruname and Tosh acknowledging that they are ready to vote.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct , 2005 11:54 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Posts: 5134
Cerin, that is correct. All of the additions and changes to the Charter should be specified in the membership-wide yes or no vote.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun 02 Oct , 2005 10:10 am 
Filthy darwinian hobbit
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Location: Silly Suffolk
I am sorry I was away yesterday.
Though I sympathise with Ax's sentiment over betrayal of trust I am with Voronwe over penalties. I said earlier that this could be a distraction from the task before us. Penalties for making false accusations should be no harsher with ToE than the rest of the board but I think it needs careful consideration as there are many steps between outright malice and a simple error. It should be a separate matter for a committe to consider and should relate to the whole board.
I am ready to vote.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun 02 Oct , 2005 8:36 pm 
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
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Location: UK
Sure.

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