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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 10:12 am 
Per aspera ad astra
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Sorry, I have no possibility to be online during the week-end, but jsut read everything with a clear monday morning mind and am ready to vote.

(I want a bisou from Voronwë too - sulks)

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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 1:30 pm 
Thanks to Holby

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Thank you, everyone. We can now proceed to vote in this thread.

Please stay available to review the text for presenting the amendment, and for whatever work we might be called upon to do during the member discussion. Nin will be unavailable after 8 October, but we will still have seven members, which is the minimum allowed by the Charter.


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 1:37 pm 
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BALLOT

Question 1. B


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 1:54 pm 

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My dear Nin: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 2:12 pm 

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Question 1.

A


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 3:06 pm 
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Question 1

A

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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 5:02 pm 
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Question 1.

A

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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 5:46 pm 
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Question 1

A

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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 7:18 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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I think either one would work...and good thing too, in case the feedback from the membership is negative upon presentation. That said, I have detected a little more uneasiness about B, since so much of it takes place off-stage, whereas at least part of the A process is quasi-public (in ToE).

Question 1: A.

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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 8:18 pm 
Thanks to Holby

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I humbly and sincerely apologize to Nin and Eru if this seems to marginalize the importance of their votes. Of course their votes are just as important as everyone else's, but since I will be away from the computer for several hours and since the outcome is not in doubt at this point, I thought I would get this in front of the committee for review.

I would appreciate committee members reviewing the following text for presenting the amendment to the membership, and offering whatever comments and suggestions you might have. I would particularly like you to note the text in purple, because I don't want to be making any statements that don't reflect the perspective of the committee as a whole.

Question: Are votes supposed to all start on a certain day (Wednesday)? Does that mean I should wait to open the discussion until 10 days before that day, or doesn't it matter if the discussion carries on longer than 10 days? Am I correct in thinking that we decided to keep votes open until midnight EST on the day they close, regardless of what time the vote was opened?

Important note: Upon re-reading the proposal, it struck me that two segments of text were less than ideally placed. These segments (which formerly followed the announcement thread instruction text as one paragraph) are shown in blue where I have re-placed them within the text of the announcement thread instructions. I also broke the announcement thread instruction text into separate paragraphs because it seemed somewhat overwhelming run together, and I thought the instructions were clearer this way. Needless to say, I will undo these changes if they do not meet with the committee's approval (you can check the former placement by looking at the ballot in the first post of this thread).

Last important note: It struck me that the note accompanying the poll text (shown in green) is now redundant because of the second option that was chosen by the committee. If the majority of the committee agrees, I will edit out the note with the instructions to include it in the question line of the poll.


-----------------------------------------------------

Dear Members

We find ourselves once again in need of a ratification vote, this time to amend Article 6 of the Charter: Age Restricted Forum.

To those who are fed up with hearing about this subject, to those who were annoyed by the committee's clumsy attempt to garner information with polls in Turf and Symposium and to those who are not personally affected by what happens to ToE we make a plea for compassion -- that you once again give your careful attention to this question for the sake of those to whom it matters.

Given the sensitivity of the information posted in the Thinking of England forum and therefore the greater vulnerability of ToE posters to harm by careless or malicious use of that information, we realized as the eligibility deadlines for the forum approached that we need a way to keep people we have reason to believe can't be trusted with such information out of that forum.

What follows for your consideration is the result of our deliberations on how best to deal with this dilemma within the framework of our stated board ideals of equality, openness and respect.

HERE IS HOW THIS PROCESS WORKS:

All registered members are encouraged to discuss and vote in this thread.

The full text of the amendment is given below. In addition, there is an addendum of other minor amendments to the Charter that will be approved (or rejected) along with this amendment in order to make the Charter and the new amendment consistent with one another.

Before voting, we discuss in this thread for a minimum of ten days.

Please do not hesitate to speak up about parts of this proposal that you have questions about or that you don't agree with. If enough people dislike certain provisions we will remove them from the text before the voting begins and allow the committee to work on them again until they are more acceptable to the membership. We (on the committee) would greatly prefer to pass an amendment than to leave the ToE forum with no protections (which would be the result if the amendment is rejected because of controversial provisions).

At the end of the discussion, the vote opens and remains open for ten days. The vote takes the form of a poll in this thread, where you will vote either yes or no to approve this amendment.

The vote will remain open until (date to be supplied).

(Quorum number to be supplied)


ARTICLE 6: Age Restricted Forum

¶3: Eligibility to Access the Age Restricted Forum

A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from a Ranger.

AMENDMENT TO ARTICLE 6: PROCEDURE FOR DENIAL OF ACCESS

In recognition of the special level of trust, sensitivity and comfort required in the Thinking Of England forum as already witnessed by the 3 month / 100 posts rule for eligibility, we propose the following amendment:

The following text will be added to the ‘PLEASE READ before posting in this forum!’ sticky in the ToE forum under a heading, ‘Denying Access to this Forum’.

"Seeking to deny another member the benefits and enjoyment of posting in this forum should not be undertaken lightly. Everyone who posts here must take full responsibility for their decision to reveal intimate and sensitive information to people they do not know and may not like. It would be unfair to shift the responsibility for personal feelings of vulnerability to others by trying to keep them out of this forum if the concern is not in some way related to an awareness of questionable behavior on their part."

When a member requests access to the forum, a Ranger will title an announcement thread in the ToE forum with the petitioning member’s name and will post in it the following text:

"(Member name) has requested access to this forum. Members have until (10 days from day of announcement) to consider whether they have a reasonable belief that the rules pertaining to posting on the ToE forum are likely to be broken by the petitioner based on past experience either here or elsewhere. Those rules include posting in a manner that ridicules, demeans or threatens other posters, or engaging in provocation or the spreading of sensitive information.

ToE members who object to the petitioner gaining access should submit a brief explanation by PM to a Ranger or by email to the Administrator account (List of Rangers and Admin. acct. email address). A Ranger will send an email acknowledgment to each person who submits an objection to let them know their objection has been received, and will forward a copy of this acknowledgment to a designated ToE member. Once two objections are submitted, a summary of those objections will be posted in this thread and the thread will continue to be updated in this way as more objections are received.

Approximately halfway (five days) into the objection period, a poll will be added to the thread; ToE members who believe the petitioner should be denied access based on the objections listed may indicate this by voting in the poll. If 12 ToE members vote to exclude the petitioner, the petitioner will be denied access to the forum for six months. Forum members are trusted to refrain from trying to deny the petitioner access without good reason."

The poll will offer the following options, with the note placed in the question line of the poll:
Note that 'I do not think this person should have access to ToE ...' is the only relevant option. Votes recorded for the second option will be disregarded.
-I do not think this person should have access to ToE based on the objections stated in the thread
-This option is only here because a poll requires at least two options

Discretionary Exception for Extraordinary Circumstance

If a Ranger receives a communication that a ToE member has had a RL experience of a seriously harmful nature with the petitioner, the veracity of which is supported by at least one other ToE member, the Ranger at their discretion may announce in the petitioner's thread in ToE that such a complaint has been brought and the petitioner has summarily been denied access. The petitioner will be informed that a serious complaint has been lodged and their access denied, and the thread will then be locked and deleted. If it is subsequently determined in a hearing that the accusation was false, the accusing member will be subject to penalties up to and including an immediate ban and always including a minimum two-year ban from the Thinking of England forum.

When the 10-day period is over a Ranger will announce in the ToE thread whether the petitioner is granted or denied access, will state the number of objections submitted and will supply the petitioner with a summary of the objections lodged against them, making every effort to avoid revealing the identity of those objecting. The petitioner's thread will be left up for an additional three days, after which time a Ranger will delete it.

If the number of objections is less than that required to deny access, the petitioner will be granted access to the forum and should announce their arrival in the Welcome thread in the forum, which will be created for this purpose.

A committee composed of volunteer ToE posters and Rangers will annually review these procedures to assess their effectiveness and determine if changes need to be made. If changes are required, they will make this known to the board at large and the usual procedure for amending the Charter will be followed.


ADDENDUM of Minor Companion Amendments

1. The text in blue below will be added to Article 3, ¶3 Selection of Rangers:

While volunteers are listed as new entrants, all members are responsible for reviewing the roster to determine whether they know any good reason why a particular volunteer would not make a good Ranger and should not immediately enter the pool of full Rangers when their training is complete. If no member expresses a concern or objection volunteers will enter the pool of full Rangers without delay. If a member does have a concern or objection to a particular volunteer, these must be sent by email to the Administrator account, where they will also be forwarded to the Mayor so that the Mayor together with current Rangers can review them for merit. A Ranger will send an email acknowledgment to each person who submits an objection to let them know their objection has been received.


2. This text from Article 3 ¶4: Routine powers of Rangers:

• In the Thinking of England Forum, enable posting rights when age confirmations are received;

will be changed to read:

• In the Thinking of England Forum, initiate announcement threads and oversee consideration periods in accordance with the instructions in Article 6, ¶3.


3. The text in blue will be added to Article 5, ¶9: Offenses That Merit a Penalty

Offenses for which the maximum penalty for a first offense is an immediate ban
- Spamming the board with ads;
- Spamming the board with pornography;
- Hacking the board;
- Refusing to abide by the Decision of the Jury in a Hearing [maximum penalty is
mandated by Article 3];
- Threats of real life violence or other criminal acts against members [maximum
penalty is mandated by Article 3];
- Deliberately introducing a virus to members of the board.
- Falsely accusing a member of harmful RL actions in order to deny them access to the Thinking of England forum.


4. The following provision from Article 2, section A, ¶1: Members Rights and Responsibilities:

(You have the right) to post in our Thiking of England forum (a forum restricted to those who are 18 years of age or older) once you have met the eligibility requirements.

will be changed to read:

You have the right) to post in our Thinking of England forum (a forum restricted to those who are 18 years of age or older) once you have met the eligibility requirements and if you have not been denied access pursuant to Article 6 ¶3.


Last edited by Cerin on Mon 03 Oct , 2005 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 8:31 pm 
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I will not have access to a terminal tomorrow but I have no strong feelings about the text if the others wish to decide.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 10:17 pm 

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Cerin wrote:
Question: Are votes supposed to all start on a certain day (Wednesday)? Does that mean I should wait to open the discussion until 10 days before that day, or doesn't it matter if the discussion carries on longer than 10 days? Am I correct in thinking that we decided to keep votes open until midnight EST on the day they close, regardless of what time the vote was opened?


Votes can begin any day, because we dropped the two weekend requirement. So as soon the discussion begins the ten day period begins. Once that is over, the ten day voting period begins. what we discussed at the end of the last binding vote was making sure that the votes remain open until midnight GMT.

Quote:
Important note: Upon re-reading the proposal, it struck me that two segments of text were less than ideally placed. These segments (which formerly followed the announcement thread instruction text as one paragraph) are shown in blue where I have re-placed them within the text of the announcement thread instructions. I also broke the announcement thread instruction text into separate paragraphs because it seemed somewhat overwhelming run together, and I thought the instructions were clearer this way. Needless to say, I will undo these changes if they do not meet with the committee's approval (you can check the former placement by looking at the ballot in the first post of this thread).


No problems here.

Quote:
Last important note: It struck me that the note accompanying the poll text (shown in green) is now redundant because of the second option that was chosen by the committee. If the majority of the committee agrees, I will edit out the note with the instructions to include it in the question line of the poll.


No problems here.
-----------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Dear Members

We find ourselves once again in need of a ratification vote, this time to amend Article 6 of the Charter: Age Restricted Forum.

To those who are fed up with hearing about this subject, to those who were annoyed by the committee's clumsy attempt to garner information with polls in Turf and Symposium and to those who are not personally affected by what happens to ToE we make a plea for compassion -- that you once again give your careful attention to this question for the sake of those to whom it matters.

Given the sensitivity of the information posted in the Thinking of England forum and therefore the greater vulnerability of ToE posters to harm by careless or malicious use of that information, we realized as the eligibility deadlines for the forum approached that we need a way to keep people we have reason to believe can't be trusted with such information out of that forum.

What follows for your consideration is the result of our deliberations on how best to deal with this dilemma within the framework of our stated board ideals of equality, openness and respect.

HERE IS HOW THIS PROCESS WORKS:

All registered members are encouraged to discuss and vote in this thread.

The full text of the amendment is given below. In addition, there is an addendum of other minor amendments to the Charter that will be approved (or rejected) along with this amendment in order to make the Charter and the new amendment consistent with one another.

Before voting, we discuss in this thread for a minimum of ten days.

Please do not hesitate to speak up about parts of this proposal that you have questions about or that you don't agree with. If enough people dislike certain provisions we will remove them from the text before the voting begins and allow the committee to work on them again until they are more acceptable to the membership. We (on the committee) would greatly prefer to pass an amendment than to leave the ToE forum with no protections (which would be the result if the amendment is rejected because of controversial provisions).

At the end of the discussion, the vote opens and remains open for ten days, two weekends inclusive. The vote takes the form of a poll in this thread, where you will vote either yes or no to approve this amendment.

The vote will remain open until (date to be supplied).

(Quorum number to be supplied)


I'm sorry, Cerin, I think that this is much too long, and that most of it should not go in the introductory post. I understand and appreciate the sentiments, but I don't think it is appropriate. I think the introductory post should parallel the previous ratification threads, and that any additional appeals or opinions should be made by individuals, not the committee. I am particularly against including the information in purple, or any variation, as the committee as a whole should not be encouraging any particular action from the membership. [Note this is my opinon only, not a loremaster opinion. If a majority of the rest of the committee agrees with Cerin's approach, I will bow to those wishes.]

Also, the "two weekends inclusive" should be removed because we no longer have that requirement


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 10:44 pm 
Thanks to Holby

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Thanks for your perspective, Voronwe, and for the info on the voting periods.

Would you agree that the following remarks are necessary and appropriate? (I've removed the second paragraph referencing the polls and the fourth paragraph referencing the difficulties in balancing the forum requirements against our stated ideals.)

Quote:
Dear Members

We find ourselves once again in need of a ratification vote, this time to amend Article 6 of the Charter: Age Restricted Forum.

Given the sensitivity of the information posted in the Thinking of England forum and therefore the greater vulnerability of ToE posters to harm by careless or malicious use of that information, we realized as the eligibility deadlines for the forum approached that we need a way to keep people we have reason to believe can't be trusted with such information out of that forum.

I believe that second paragraph is necessary because we need to explain to the membership why this has come up for a vote again.


Quote:
To those who are fed up with hearing about this subject, to those who were annoyed by the committee's clumsy attempt to garner information with polls in Turf and Symposium and to those who are not personally affected by what happens to ToE we make a plea for compassion -- that you once again give your careful attention to this question for the sake of those to whom it matters.

Just to explain myself a bit, I added the above paragraph because it seemed to me that the committee itself had caused a great deal of rancor, annoyance and potential topic fatigue with the polls, and that wasn't quite fair to the amendment.

Quote:
What follows for your consideration is the result of our deliberations on how best to deal with this dilemma within the framework of our stated board ideals of equality, openness and respect.

I added the above paragraph because I felt that the attempt to balance opposing interests was so important, and was important to let the membership know we had been aware of that.

I added the purple text because I want to do everything possible to ensure that we pass something. But I wasn't sure of the appropriateness of any of it, which is why I wanted the committee to check it before posting.

I'll wait to hear from some more committee members. If no one else has strong feelings either way, I'll delete the noted paragraphs and the purple text.


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 10:50 pm 
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I would rather have it all in because I *would* prefer that something be passed.

Thanks for the effort Cerin :cheers:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 11:34 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
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Cerin wrote:
Would you agree that the following remarks are necessary and appropriate? (I've removed the second paragraph referencing the polls and the fourth paragraph referencing the difficulties in balancing the forum requirements against our stated ideals.)

Quote:
Dear Members

We find ourselves once again in need of a ratification vote, this time to amend Article 6 of the Charter: Age Restricted Forum.

Given the sensitivity of the information posted in the Thinking of England forum and therefore the greater vulnerability of ToE posters to harm by careless or malicious use of that information, we realized as the eligibility deadlines for the forum approached that we need a way to keep people we have reason to believe can't be trusted with such information out of that forum.

I believe that second paragraph is necessary because we need to explain to the membership why this has come up for a vote again.


Yes, I can see a need for this.


Quote:
Quote:
To those who are fed up with hearing about this subject, to those who were annoyed by the committee's clumsy attempt to garner information with polls in Turf and Symposium and to those who are not personally affected by what happens to ToE we make a plea for compassion -- that you once again give your careful attention to this question for the sake of those to whom it matters.

Just to explain myself a bit, I added the above paragraph because it seemed to me that the committee itself had caused a great deal of rancor, annoyance and potential topic fatigue with the polls, and that wasn't quite fair to the amendment.


While I appreciate the sentiment, I continue to believe this is unnecessary and inappropriate. I think that this will doing nothing other then remind people that they were fed up with hearing about this subject, annoyed by the polls, etc. Either they are going to give it the attention it deserves or they are not - asking them to do so is not going to help (IMO).

Moreover, I do take some umbridge at taking the "blame" onto the committee. After all, we are the ones that have dedicated our time and energy to this question, and I think we all would agree that it has been a grueling, difficult process. I was not pleased at the annoyance that some members directed at the committee's efforts and I am not wild about empowering that sentiment by specifically addressing it in the opening post.

Quote:
Quote:
What follows for your consideration is the result of our deliberations on how best to deal with this dilemma within the framework of our stated board ideals of equality, openness and respect.

I added the above paragraph because I felt that the attempt to balance opposing interests was so important, and was important to let the membership know we had been aware of that.


This sentiment I could support.

Quote:
I added the purple text because I want to do everything possible to ensure that we pass something. But I wasn't sure of the appropriateness of any of it, which is why I wanted the committee to check it before posting.


Again, I do understand and appreciate the sentiment. :hug: I just don't think it is appropriate. :)

Quote:
I'll wait to hear from some more committee members. If no one else has strong feelings either way, I'll delete the noted paragraphs and the purple text.


I do hope that others will weigh in, and again I am happy to bow to the wises of the majority.


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 11:54 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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I find myself pretty much in agreement with Voronwe on the presentation text. Anyone who is annoyed will only be MORE annoyed if they're reminded of it.

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct , 2005 2:07 am 
Thanks to Holby

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Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

I'll plan on taking out the poll paragraph and the purple text, and I'll leave in the balancing interests paragraph.

So should I post this in Business in the morning?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct , 2005 2:10 am 
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We should wait for Nin and Eru.

Besides the fact that it is more respectful towards them (which I think is very very important) I don't want anyone not on the committee saying that this wasn't an official proceedure because not all the votes were in before it was presented to the board.

It would suck if we got stopped short by something like that happening.

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct , 2005 2:24 am 
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I wasn't going to bother since it's already been decided, but whatever:

A

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct , 2005 2:42 am 
Thanks to Holby

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Thanks for that reminder, Estel. I should have said, in the morning if all the votes are in.

Thanks, Eru. I think it's important that everyone cast their votes, regardless that the outcome became obvious before all the votes were in.


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